TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. A substance with particular, energizing qualities that may solely be discovered within the brains of youngsters who’ve been sexually tortured in satanic rituals is harvested from youngsters and distributed to high Democrats, Hollywood celebrities and bankers within the cabal. This substance referred to as adrenochrome is a liquid fountain of youth that may assist hold the customers alive. How did that grow to be a foundational perception of QAnon? How did it replicate and add to the antisemitic beliefs of this conspiratorial group? How did QAnon enter mainstream politics?

These are among the many questions journalist Will Sommer offers with in his new e book, “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” He warns that QAnon is not a one-time phenomenon. It’s simply the beginning of the all-consuming conspiracy principle actions to come back. He’s been following QAnon from its very starting and was writing concerning the far proper even earlier than that. His reporting has made him a goal of QAnon, making it important for him to put on disguises when he exhibits up at their rallies. Sommer says he has an uncommon ardour for consuming large quantities of right-wing media after having been raised in a conservative Texas household the place highway journeys meant listening to Rush Limbaugh’s discuss radio present. Sommer is a political reporter for The Daily Beast and co-host of the podcast “Fever Dreams.”

Will Sommer, welcome to FRESH AIR. So let’s begin with January 6. You had been outdoors the Capitol chatting with QAnon followers. You quote what one in all them informed you, which fairly properly sums up plenty of the craziest of the QAnon beliefs. So simply undergo what this one individual informed you about why they had been there to offer again the presidency to Trump.

WILL SOMMER: Sure. So I spoke with a girl – and that is earlier than the riot occurred. I spoke with a girl named Teresa (ph) who had come from the Midwest to come back out to D.C. But as a result of she was a QAnon believer – and she or he was holding a large Q on a workers possibly twice her top – she mentioned she wasn’t simply there to, you recognize, see Trump reinstated or see him get one other 4 years or disrupt the vote depend. She mentioned that she was there as a result of she believed that world elites hold youngsters in tunnels the place they drain them of their blood – they name them mole youngsters – and that she believed that, you recognize, the kind of the best forces on this planet had been committing horrible crimes in opposition to youngsters and that there needed to be this sort of climactic second that she believed could be that day.

GROSS: And so this wasn’t nearly who could be president. As you say, it was a bodily wrestle with Satan and a battle for the soul of the world.

SOMMER: Exactly. So as a QAnon believer, Teresa did not simply suppose that, you recognize, electing a Republican president means she’ll have Supreme Court justices she likes or decrease tax charges. I imply, she noticed this actually as a wrestle between good and evil and that she was a soldier on its entrance traces. And finally, she would face expenses for her function within the riot. For QAnon believers like her, it is metaphysical. It’s not simply politics. It’s about heaven and hell. And after I was there earlier than the riot occurred, I noticed what number of QAnon believers had been there, and so they had been chanting QAnon slogans. And when somebody they thought was Mike Pence pulled up, they freaked out and began actually yelling about QAnon. So I had that sense of this actually unsettled anger that QAnon had prompted that finally did assist find yourself driving the riot.

GROSS: Trump to QAnon believers – a minimum of when he was president – was a savior. He was any person who was going to proper all of the wrongs on this planet and switch the world right into a extra utopian place. It was form of just like the second coming or one thing, and I simply can’t perceive why, of all folks, Trump turned this messianic determine.

SOMMER: You know, it is fascinating. Some of them name him the God emperor of the United States. So slightly than POTUS, they are saying GEOTUS. So, I imply, that’s how deep their admiration and adulation for him runs. I feel when it comes to why QAnon believers see Donald Trump as, as you say, a messianic determine – it’s baffling. It is a man who in some methods appears so venal and is such a slave to kind of his basest instincts, you recognize, whether or not it is his ego or sexual gratification or greed. And but they see him as a man who won’t simply, you recognize, set America proper or restore American values or what have you ever, no matter they may consider that to be. But they see him as a man who, you recognize, will nearly herald a utopian world the place ailments are cured and there is not any battle and all of us dwell in peace.

GROSS: Do they nonetheless have that form of religion in Trump ‘trigger in any case, he was president for 4 years? We do not all dwell in peace. We do not dwell in utopia. Diseases have not been cured. And Trump plans on working once more. So what are the QAnon followers’ ideas about Trump now?

SOMMER: Yeah, so definitely I feel folks cycle out and in of QAnon. You know, I feel January 6, they thought, was going to be the second they name the storm. They thought that may be when Trump would execute his enemies, ship everybody, like, from Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton to Tom Hanks to Guantanamo Bay. And when that did not occur, they had been shocked. And then they had been actually shocked when Joe Biden was inaugurated as a result of they felt, properly, you recognize, possibly that is all a part of the flowery plan.

But when that occurred, they acquired actually involved. I talked to at least one QAnon believer who mentioned she threw up as a result of she was so upset. And but the unimaginable factor about QAnon and what I discover within the e book with conspiracy theories extra broadly is how folks cope with the cognitive dissonance of a prediction that you’ve got actually staked your life on failing to come back true. And typically folks – they give you a – they rationalize it, and so they say, properly, you recognize, possibly the deep state was harder than we realized. That’s why, you recognize, Trump could not take them down this time. And that is why in 2024, we’ll simply need to work additional onerous to elect him.

GROSS: Ginni Thomas, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas’s spouse, texted Mark Meadows, Trump’s closing chief of workers, that it appeared like Trump had misplaced, however the election may have been a ruse to arrest high Democrats. And then she quoted from a QAnon web site that Biden and his co-conspirators could be headed for Guantanamo Bay to face army tribunals. You simply talked about Guantanamo Bay. I imply, so two issues right here – one is a Supreme Court justice’s spouse is mainly quoting QAnon beliefs. And the second factor is why Guantanamo Bay? Why does that – and army tribunals – why does that determine a lot into QAnon? If you possibly can – that is loads to ask you in a single reply. Yeah.

SOMMER: Sure. So initially, yeah, let’s take Ginni Thomas. So her textual content messages got here out as a result of the January 6 committee acquired them by means of Mark Meadows. And after I was studying them, I used to be so struck by how QAnon had actually reached the highest ranks of the federal government. It’s – the QAnon individual she was quoting from wasn’t even a mainline QAnon individual. It was kind of a fringe one that different QAnon believers suppose is a kook. And in order that was putting to me as how – and I see this time and again – is how this factor that I feel the common individual dismisses as simply web weirdness and a bunch of – possibly not that many kind of unhinged folks actually has managed to amass a lot affect in American politics that it – that somebody – you recognize, Supreme Court justice’s spouse is advising the president’s chief of workers about it. As far as Guantanamo Bay goes, I feel a psychologist would possibly have the ability to say what concerning the American psyche it’s that – and the way the battle on terror has affected us that Guantanamo Bay looms so largely that individuals say, properly, you recognize, we simply acquired to – we acquired to chop by means of this mess of politics and gridlock. We simply acquired to ship these people to Guantanamo Bay. But it actually is a big factor there. I feel it’s this attraction of frustration with American politics that individuals simply – you recognize, primarily they need a army coup. And they need – they’re obsessive about army tribunals as if, you recognize, all the pieces else has been contaminated with liberalism or this nefarious cabal that QAnon is combating in opposition to, that we will solely belief the army.

GROSS: So getting again to Trump, Trump’s Doral resort in Miami goes to host a pro-QAnon talking tour. The tour is named ReAwaken America. It’s hosted by Michael Flynn, General Michael Flynn, who was the primary nationwide safety adviser to Trump. He did not final lengthy. And it is also hosted by Clay Clark. I do not actually know who Clay Clark is, however what is that this ReAwaken America QAnon tour and why is Trump internet hosting it at his personal resort?

SOMMER: Sure. So ReAwaken America is kind of – it is a extremely popular pro-Trump highway present, primarily, that travels the nation. And it is all of those conspiracy theorists underneath the banner, as you mentioned, of Michael Flynn and a man named Clay Clark, who’s a Tulsa radio host, who’s kind of a – slash kind of entrepreneurship guru. And so it is stocked with plenty of – it is plenty of form of COVID quacks, lots of people, you recognize, pushing ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine and plenty of main QAnon figures. I went to its first occasion for the e book in Tulsa in 2021. And I, you recognize, I form of slipped previous safety. They mentioned they had been going to have plenty of safety to maintain out media and antifa as a result of they had been satisfied that, you recognize, antifa would journey to suburban Tulsa to wreak havoc.

And I acquired in there. And it was fascinating. I imply, these had been – Jim Caviezel, the actor who performed Jesus in “Passion Of The Christ,” spoke about his perception in adrenochrome, this concept that, you recognize, world elites are terrorizing youngsters and consuming their blood. Lin Wood, who was – briefly labored for the Trump marketing campaign acquired up there, this lawyer, and he gave a speech that was this – that is in entrance of 1000’s of individuals. And he is saying, you recognize, they’re – the world elites are killing youngsters, and we’ll get them. We’re going to get the queen of England. We’re going to get John Roberts. And these 1000’s of individuals had been on their ft crying for blood. And in order that’s a style of what a ReAwaken America tour is like. And now will probably be formally hosted at a Trump property.

GROSS: And, in fact, there’s cash concerned. You talked about that Michael Flynn was auctioning off plenty of objects, together with an autographed baseball bat, a bat autographed by Flynn himself that he bought for $7,000.

SOMMER: The sum of money concerned in these occasions, I feel folks typically actually do not realize the – as you mentioned, I went to an public sale of QAnon paraphernalia. And they’d have form of a shoddily Photoshopped image of Michael Flynn as a Revolutionary War hero, maybe with a Q or a 17, which is a outstanding Q image. And this is able to go for $5,000, $10,000. He bought a QAnon quilt for 1000’s of {dollars}. And an attention-grabbing factor about Michael Flynn is that we all know privately that he feels that QAnon is faux and that it’s a ruse as a result of Lin Wood, one in all his rivals, secretly recorded him saying as a lot. But he nonetheless seems in any respect of those occasions. I assume he has payments to pay. You know, I imply, his motivation here’s a little unclear. But I feel that actually offers you a glimpse contained in the management of this motion and that there is a monetary incentive to recruit extra folks into it.

GROSS: Let me reintroduce you. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Will Sommer, writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” We’ll be proper again. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Will Sommer, writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” He’s been reporting on QAnon because it started. He’s a politics reporter for The Daily Beast.

What is the state of QAnon now?

SOMMER: Sure. So after Biden’s inauguration, I feel QAnon believers had been actually shocked. And they kind of needed to accumulate themselves. The nameless determine Q had gone silent shortly earlier than that and mentioned, hey, everybody, cease figuring out as QAnon believers. Still consider what you do and unfold the phrase, however in case you say QAnon, we’re getting banned from social media, so do not be so seen. So QAnon went underground for a short time. But as Donald Trump returned to the general public stage, we’re beginning to see QAnon rev up once more. Trump is posting about QAnon on Truth Social, his platform. There was one evaluation that mentioned a 3rd of all of his posts have been selling QAnon. He’s posting footage of himself sporting Qs, stuff like this.

And we’re additionally seeing the – I feel the concept we – that Republicans acquired from QAnon, that you would kind of simply casually name your political opponents pedophiles or accuse them of being concerned in conspiracies to deprave youngsters, that that is – has grow to be mainstream within the Republican Party. I imply, we take into consideration Ron DeSantis pushing this concept that each homosexual instructor is a groomer or that – or now we see Donald Trump revving up and kind of implying that DeSantis is a pedophile. So I feel this conspiratorial nature of QAnon has actually gone mainstream within the GOP.

GROSS: When was the final time Q despatched a message? And what was that message?

SOMMER: Yes. So it was truly a couple of months in the past. Q was offline for a few yr. And there was briefly a Q impersonator in 2021. I used to be at a QAnon convention when it occurred, and everybody was saying, oh, Q’s again, Q’s again. But that didn’t develop into the case. And then Q has revved up as of the autumn and, you recognize, identical form of cryptic messages – keep the course, patriots, these form of issues. But in a approach, QAnon not wants Q. I feel as folks began to suspect that – QAnon believers initially believed it was somebody near Trump, like Michael Flynn, for instance, or possibly Don Jr. But more and more, as they began to suspect that it was not likely a high-ranking intelligence official, they began to distance themselves from Q. And they began to say, properly, possibly Q was only a man in his mother’s basement, however what he taught us was actual. The stuff about adrenochrome and the dungeons and all these items, that’s true. So QAnon can proceed even when its chief is uncovered as a fraud.

GROSS: And within the U.S., there are factions and there are splits inside QAnon. Can you inform us about a few of these splits?

SOMMER: Oh, completely. I imply, this is without doubt one of the most fascinating issues to cowl about QAnon, is how QAnon extra broadly, for somebody outdoors of it, appears so ridiculous. But even inside the motion, you have got individuals who say, properly, that group’s wanting – making us look foolish; we’re a critical operation right here. So one of many main ones is a query of whether or not JFK Jr. faked his demise within the ’90s from a airplane crash and is, actually, nonetheless alive. And so it is a group – I might say it is – possibly 30% of QAnon believers consider that he’s nonetheless alive.

And so you have got guys who’re – they exist in the actual world, however folks consider that they’re JFK Jr. And so that they’ll present up at these rallies, and everybody says, wow, it is JFK Jr. I talked to – I used to be shadowing one in all them, and these girls had been so excited to see him as if they’d seen, you recognize, an actual celeb. And I mentioned, you recognize, that man appears nothing like JFK Jr. And she mentioned, you recognize, have not you ever heard of particular results? Haven’t you ever heard of Tyler Perry and Madea?

GROSS: Well, you recognize, you say this complete JFK Jr. story is without doubt one of the tales that drives you loopy. You know, JFK Jr. died in 1999 in a airplane crash. And one of many individuals who impersonates him, Vincent Fusca, developed his personal following. People dressed like him on Halloween. There are numerological calculations based mostly on his license plate with secret meanings. You truly talked to him. What impression did you are taking away from this man?

SOMMER: Yeah, I’ve truly – I’ve talked to him many instances, and he loves texting me to today. So it is a man who appears like, you recognize – and I do not suppose he would dispute this. He appears just a little shabby. He’s acquired a form of a everlasting 5 o’clock shadow. He wears a fedora. And so he is a man who was a Trump superfan. He had a van lined in Trump footage. And so it seems as if the Trump marketing campaign began giving him plenty of VIP passes to occasions. And so he was at all times showing behind Trump at rallies.

So then, sooner or later, some QAnon believers mentioned, hey, do you suppose that man appears like JFK Jr.? And do you suppose that blonde lady close to him appears like JFK Jr.’s spouse? And so these folks turned satisfied that he was JFK Jr. And what is frustrating to me is that it is a man who he is aware of he isn’t JFK Jr. He’s the one man who is aware of that greater than anybody. But he nonetheless exhibits up at these occasions, and generally he’ll put on a JFK Jr. shirt. And folks say, wow, it is JFK Jr. And he says, properly, possibly, possibly. And so I’ve run into him repeatedly, and he’ll say, properly, you recognize, I’d truly love to speak with you about that; can we meet up in an hour? And so I’ll say, OK, positive. And then, in fact, he by no means responds.

But generally when there is a rival JFK Jr. on the scene, he’ll textual content me and say, oh, look – you recognize, have a look at this. Look at this man. What’s he as much as? But I imply, he appears to be having the time of his life. He’ll do karaoke at occasions, and everybody thrills to it as if they’re seeing JFK Jr. carry out karaoke.

GROSS: So is the entire bit right here that JFK Jr. staged his personal faux demise so he may return as Q?

SOMMER: It’s very advanced. And I feel you make the error of (laughter) making an attempt to make sense of it. But mainly…

GROSS: I’m sorry.

SOMMER: Oh, no, no, no.

GROSS: No, I’m kidding (laughter).

SOMMER: There is an inner logic to it as a result of the concept is that the deep state, the people who find themselves out to get Donald Trump, the cabal, assassinated John F. Kennedy, the president. And so JFK Jr. noticed this and mentioned, you recognize, I understand how sick these persons are. I’m going to go undercover. And so he fakes his demise within the ’90s on this airplane crash after which both turns into Q – some folks consider that – or simply works together with his buddy Donald Trump to take down the cabal. And this concept of this sort of this hidden determine who’s going to come back again to life – I imply, there actually are some messianic spiritual points to it. But folks actually purchase into this.

I went to – in 2019, Trump had a really kind of Trump-ified July Fourth celebration in D.C. And all of those QAnon believers, amongst different folks, got here to D.C. for it. I used to be hanging out on the Trump Hotel, and I noticed this lady sporting a JFK Jr. shirt, who was satisfied that he was coming again That day. I noticed a girl sporting a JFK Jr. masks, and I mentioned, you recognize, excuse me, what is the significance of this masks? And she simply mentioned, he is alive, and kind of flitted away into the group.

So, I imply, it is a really weird motion. And it’s one that’s kind of controversial even inside QAnon. But folks purchase into it to the extent that dozens of individuals flocked to Dallas final yr. They had been satisfied that JFK Jr. and all these different celebrities would come again to life. I talked to individuals who had misplaced members of the family to this group. I imply, it truly is – as ridiculous because it appears, it’s a viable motion for a lot of.

GROSS: That’s the factor. I’ve seen I’ve laughed a number of instances whereas we have been speaking ‘trigger the conspiracy theories are actually so ludicrous. At the identical time, it is a actually harmful group. There have been murders hooked up to the group. The conspiracy theories are poisoning American politics and dividing the American folks. So I need to excuse myself for laughing. It’s simply – I can not assist however giggle at a few of these beliefs. But it is harmful.

SOMMER: That actually is the kind of the factor it’s a must to steadiness in your thoughts, is that it’s so ridiculous, and there are plenty of moments of humor to it. I imply, simply Vincent Fusca alone, this man who, you recognize, he is aware of is kind of impersonating JFK Jr. – there may be comedy there. But as you say, I imply, that is additionally a bunch that was closely concerned in January 6, a number of murders. Since I wrote the e book, two totally different QAnon believers have been accused of murdering members of their household due to their beliefs. There is kind of this QAnon felony underground. And then, in a kind of extra mundane however equally tragic approach, there are additionally simply all of those households which have been destroyed by QAnon, the place abruptly somebody within the household begins saying, properly, you recognize, I acquired this loopy story about Hillary Clinton to let you know. And everybody thinks they’re joking proper up till they are not.

GROSS: Right. Well, let’s take one other break right here, after which, we’ll discuss some extra. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Will Sommer. He’s the writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” We’ll be again after a brief break. I’m Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JEFF PARKER’S “ISTANBUL”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. Let’s get again to my interview with Will Sommer, writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” He’s been reporting on QAnon from its begin, which has led him to grow to be a goal of the group. Sommer is a political reporter for The Daily Beast and co-host of the podcast “Fever Dreams.”

So two of the most important conspiracy theorists in America had been additionally two of the most important promoters of QAnon and its conspiracy theories. And I’m speaking about Alex Jones of Infowars fame and Jerome Corsi, who was one of many fathers of latest conspiracy theories. He was behind the Swift Boat marketing campaign that derailed John Kerry’s 2004 presidential marketing campaign by saying he wasn’t actually a Vietnam War hero, and he did not commit the acts of bravery that he was awarded for. Of course, he promoted birtherism, saying that Barack Obama was actually born in Kenya and was subsequently not certified to be president. So how did they grow to be proponents of QAnon?

SOMMER: So Alex Jones, as you say, is kind of the the godfather of the present American conspiracy principle motion. It actually all facilities on him. And Jerome Corsi is a man who’s a kind of trusted adviser of Alex Jones, though they’ve since had a falling out. So when the Q posts begin showing in October 2017, it would not take lengthy for Alex Jones to seemingly see this as a possibility for content material, which he is at all times looking out for. And so in – shortly after the posts begin showing, he has some outstanding QAnon promoters, some guys from YouTube primarily who’ve latched on to QAnon, on his community.

So that’s the second that QAnon actually explodes. And it goes from this factor the place you actually need to be simply actually dedicated to to conspiracy theories to seek out these items on-line. It’s hidden. It’s onerous to grasp. It’s troublesome to get into. And then abruptly, it is being packaged on this approach that nearly appears like a information community. So initially, Alex Jones and QAnon are finest mates. Jerome Corsi nearly embeds with these conspiracy theorists who’re decoding the messages. He’s hanging out with them of their chatrooms. He’s actually pushing QAnon. He’s, like, Alex Jones’ QAnon correspondent.

But then after a couple of months as QAnon is exploding, everyone seems to be profiting collectively, the individuals who win on Infowars are earning money, Alex Jones is earning money, it kind of appears as if Alex Jones and Q kind of have a look at one another and so they ask, who’s in cost right here? And abruptly, they activate one another. And I feel there is a sense of who – they notice that QAnon is a beneficial factor and it has this base that is rising. But the query is who’s going to generate income from it? And so Q says in a submit, you recognize, you bought to be cautious of paytriots. And it is a distinctive spelling right here. It’s P-A-Y patriots. So it is like, who’s earning money? A faux patriot. And that’s taken as a criticism of Jerome Corsi and Alex Jones. And abruptly, QAnon splits from Alex Jones, and so they grow to be bitter enemies. So for me, that is such an attention-grabbing factor to see as a result of it’s the inner dynamics of those actions the place abruptly Jerome Corsi is forged out of QAnon, and everybody says he is a deep state operative. We cannot belief him. We acquired to stay with the unique QAnon guys.

GROSS: And Alex Jones truly sends the message, I’m sick of all these witches and warlocks.

SOMMER: (Laughter) Yes. Yes.

GROSS: So now there is a new improvement. Alex Jones has a conspiracy principle concerning the conspiracy group QAnon. And his conspiracy principle is that Q was truly created by U.S. intelligence to discredit conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones. Can you clarify what is going on on there?

SOMMER: This is a really attention-grabbing tactic. He – sure, as you say, he is saying – now that he is been forged out of QAnon, he activates it, and now he says, properly, this factor that makes us all look ridiculous, that conjures up all this violence, that’s – that has nothing to do with me, regardless that, No. 1, he was selling it and, No. 2, it attracts on so lots of the tropes and the plotlines, if you’ll, that he is been selling for many years. He now says, properly, that is meant to embarrass me. And that is what they name – and that is one thing that comes up loads – a psyop. It’s a psychological operation perpetrated by the intelligence companies to undermine the actual fact tellers.

GROSS: Yeah, it is form of mind-boggling.

SOMMER: (Laughter) Yeah, it’s extremely mind-boggling. I imply, the ways in which these messages can shift based mostly on who’s telling them and kind of the battle over the QAnon viewers is basically one thing to behold.

GROSS: Let’s speak about antisemitism and QAnon. Maybe we must always begin with adrenochrome, which we talked about just a little bit, or a minimum of which I discussed within the introduction to the interview. But go over once more the conspiratorial beliefs about this substance often known as adrenochrome.

SOMMER: Sure. So adrenochrome is kind of the – is on the coronary heart of QAnon. It’s the reply to, why does the cabal do that? Why do they, you recognize, stage these mass shootings? Why do they do all this unhealthy stuff? Ultimately, it is about adrenochrome. Now, adrenochrome is an actual factor. It’s a byproduct of adrenaline. And it is extremely simple to make. You simply expose adrenaline to oxygen. But it is a totally different factor within the QAnon mythos. It’s like – it is the fountain of youth, primarily. They consider that adrenochrome is a substance you possibly can solely get from a toddler’s pineal gland, and you may’t simply kind of faucet the child and take it out. You need to terrorize them in a satanic ritual. And it is nearly like this worry substance that’s produced. Now, when you get this adrenochrome, folks drink it, and the world elites drink it. The high bankers, folks in Hollywood, the Democratic Party, they drink it, and it offers them everlasting life nearly. And it makes them appear younger and vigorous. And so that they consider that kind of the entire – for 1000’s of years, the world has been managed by this cabal with one aim, and that’s producing adrenochrome.

GROSS: So the adrenochrome factor dates again to this medieval conspiracy principle of the blood libel. So what’s the blood libel, and the way does it hook up with the entire adrenochrome conspiracy?

SOMMER: Sure. So the blood libel is that this matter that emerged across the thirteenth century. So we’re in medieval Europe. This youngster went lacking in England, and this rumor started that the native Jewish inhabitants had kidnapped him and murdered him in a ritual to get blood to create bread for Passover. And this concept, clearly, as ridiculous because it sounds, it catches on throughout Europe and conjures up these pogroms the place Jewish persons are murdered within the 1000’s, a minimum of, to the extent that one of many popes needed to come out and say, simply, everybody, cease believing on this. But it is an concept that persists into the twentieth century and was inspiring violence in opposition to Jewish folks even after World War II. So this – however at its core, it’s this concept of this sort of satanic or this occult ritual involving youngsters’s blood. And, in fact, now, you possibly can have a look at that and examine that to what they consider about – what QAnon believers take into consideration adrenochrome. And there are some apparent similarities right here. And then, you concentrate on, properly, who do these folks – who do QAnon believers suppose runs the cabal? And it is nearly all Jewish folks. It’s outstanding bankers. They suppose George Soros, numerous Jewish – outstanding Jewish folks within the Democratic Party. So it truly is…

GROSS: Jews in Hollywood?

SOMMER: Jews in Hollywood as properly. Thank you. Yes. Yes, outstanding Jewish folks in Hollywood. So the – they actually take it straight from the blood libel to the extent that – I imply, this is not only a coincidence when QAnon folks – ‘trigger they – QAnon believers need grounding for his or her beliefs even when it’s a very weird, faux one. And so they appear again to issues just like the Protocols of the Council of the Elders of Zion. They look again to those faux paperwork and say, see, this was speaking about adrenochrome. This is actual.

GROSS: By the way in which, if consuming adrenochrome from the brains of youngsters who had been sexually abused by Satan is basically – if that is a fountain of youth and provides you form of everlasting youth, which is without doubt one of the beliefs of QAnon, why have Democrats been accused of being a gerontocracy? I imply, look, Biden doesn’t look younger. Nancy Pelosi doesn’t look younger. They’ve each had work finished. They nonetheless appear to be older folks – Hillary Clinton, identical. So, like, it would not match the world, the actual world.

SOMMER: Yeah. I feel typically they’re mistaking Botox, you recognize, fillers, and so forth.

GROSS: (Laughter) For adrenochrome?

SOMMER: For adrenochrome. But, you recognize, it’s humorous they – in the event that they consider in adrenochrome, they kind of play it into actual world occasions. So, for instance, when the pandemic began and all of those TV exhibits needed to begin producing from residence and discuss present hosts, for instance, weren’t getting their every day make-up, they’d say, wow, you recognize, this individual actually appears outdated. That’s as a result of the pandemic has disrupted the adrenochrome provide. I imply, they – the – QAnon’s kind of a motion that – they simply cannot consider in Occam’s razor, the obvious resolution. It needs to be this the flowery world adrenochrome provide has been disrupted.

GROSS: So the place do you hint this conspiracy principle about having to reap adrenochrome from youngsters in order that the elites can have a fountain of youth? Where does that originate?

SOMMER: Sure. So in case you can consider it, it is Hunter S. Thompson and “Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas.” In his e book, the Hunter S. Thompson character receives a drug referred to as adrenochrome from one other character, and that man says, you recognize, you possibly can solely get this from a pedophile. Now, adrenochrome as an idea was form of knocking across the counterculture. Various writers had used it as kind of a stand-in for a really highly effective drug, I feel, as a result of it simply sounds cool.

And so in that approach, each the e book after which the film starring Johnny Depp actually popularized this concept of adrenochrome and this hyperlink with pedophiles. And in order that’s actually the place QAnon folks get it. I imply, so simple as that sounds, and as foolish, that’s the place they draw it from. And so while you have a look at, you recognize, “Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas” YouTube clips about adrenochrome, all up and down within the feedback, it is QAnon folks saying, you recognize, Q despatched me right here and issues like that.

GROSS: OK. Well, let’s take one other break right here. And in case you’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Will Sommer. He’s the writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” We’ll be proper again. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SOLANGE SONG, “WEARY”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Will Sommer, writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy Theory That Unhinged America.” He’s been reporting on QAnon because it started. He’s a politics reporter for The Daily Beast.

So let’s speak about makes an attempt to seek out out who Q is. You’ve talked to individuals who’ve tried to trace down Q’s id. You have tried to trace down Q’s id. No one has but succeeded. So this all traces again to the 2 locations that Q has truly left messages, 4chan after which 8chan, which turned 8kun. And these are each, like, very far-right, very conspiracy-oriented channels.

So once more, in who’s Q since the newest locations, I feel, nonetheless that she or he or they’ve communicated from is 8kun, persons are who runs it and who would know who’s Q. Or possibly one in all them is Q. So inform us just a little bit about 8kun and its predecessor, 8chan, and the way they’ve been linked to both understanding or being Q.

SOMMER: Sure. So 8chan/8kun is an nameless picture board, and so it is primarily this very anarchic message board based mostly on Japanese anime communities. So it’s only a deluge of content material, plenty of it pornographic. And so this was run by a man named Jim Watkins, who’s an American who had plenty of, I might say, shadowy enterprise pursuits within the Philippines. And so he was working this web site. Q initially emerges on 4chan, which is a way more fashionable, albeit related, picture board. The 4chan folks say – it is a bit bizarre even by our requirements – and so they kick it off.

So Q finally ends up on 8chan, the place – there’s an attention-grabbing second. And this sort of keys into who the originator of QAnon is. There’s a second when Q is on 8chan the place the directors seem to hijack the account. And whoever initially runs Q says, wait, you recognize, I’m shedding management. And the directors say, OK, that is the brand new Q. So that is what leads folks to consider – and to my thoughts, regardless that he denies this, that is essentially the most compelling clarification of who at the moment controls Q – is Jim and his son Ron Watkins had seized management of Q to attract extra folks to their channel.

GROSS: Wait, seize management from who?

SOMMER: Right. So the perfect guess now we have for who initially began it’s a South African programmer named Paul Furber, who’s kind of a – only a random man who’s fascinated with conspiracy theories. Paul Furber denies that he is Q. But he positioned himself as kind of a trusted acolyte of Q and somebody who’s kind of the interpreter for Q, his kind of oracle of Delphi. Now, as soon as they transfer it over to 8chan, he then – whoever runs Q loses management of it. And Paul Furber abruptly says, this isn’t the actual Q anymore. And he is form of forged out of the motion. So the concept is that there have been form of two phases of who ran Q and that the Watkins household at the moment controls it.

GROSS: And what do the Watkins household, what do the daddy and son need to say about that?

SOMMER: Well, they deny it for essentially the most half. I imply, they’re a colourful pair, to say the least. Jim Watkins runs a pig farm within the Philippines. He’s a man who – in case you kind of think about a man who runs plenty of nameless web sites. I ought to say, 8chan additionally turned infamous as a spot for mass shooters to submit their manifestos and to livestream their actions. The New Zealand taking pictures, amongst others, was posted there. I interviewed Ron Watkins when he was in D.C. to talk to Congress about these mass shootings. And he is a man with kind of a skinny mustache, a – middle-aged. He was sporting plenty of QAnon paraphernalia.

But after I mentioned to him, you recognize – are these pizza socks about Pizzagate, you recognize; are you sporting this QAnon pin due to QAnon? – he would say, properly, I do not know what you are speaking about, so a really slippery character. But finally, within the HBO documentary “Q: Into The Storm,” which actually investigated this pair, his son, Ron, kind of confessed. He mentioned, properly, you recognize, that is what I’ve been doing with QAnon to perform these missions and to assist folks help Trump. And then the filmmaker mentioned, properly, do you imply you are Q? And he mentioned, properly, you recognize – he kind of equivocated. So that is what leads me to consider that these two are behind it.

GROSS: If these two are behind it, if the individuals who run 8kun are behind it, does that imply that they are doing it simply to get extra followers, and subsequently to possibly make more cash?

SOMMER: Yes. I feel initially the concept was that they kind of had a golden goose right here in QAnon, in Q posting on their discussion board. And maybe they believed, you recognize, what if we simply take management of it and ensure it should keep right here on our web site without end. But it additionally appears that these two simply love chaos. I feel, in their very own lives, they embrace chaos and love mischief and getting as much as issues and tricking folks. Jim Watkins is a really right-wing man himself. And so I feel, maybe, if he got here to consider that this was one thing that was turning America to the best, that he noticed it as one thing that was good.

GROSS: Well, let’s take one other break right here. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Will Sommer, writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” We’ll be proper again. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RANKY TANKY SONG, “FREEDOM”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Will Sommer, writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” He’s been reporting on QAnon because it started. He’s a politics reporter for The Daily Beast.

As I mentioned earlier than, you recognize, I’ve been laughing at among the wild QAnon conspiracy theories. But I additionally need to say, it’s not humorous as a result of this group has energy. It is harmful. It has dedicated crimes. Followers have dedicated murders. And so let’s discuss just a little bit concerning the risks. Let’s begin just a little bit with household, since you’ve written about households the place one member of the family turns into part of QAnon, tries to transform the remainder of the household. The remainder of the household is mortified and would not know what to do to alter the beliefs of the member of the family who’s grow to be a part of QAnon, who’s believing in these loopy conspiracy theories. So what are among the patterns that you just see in what members of the family who come to you let you know?

SOMMER: Sure. I imply, that is – it is such a tragic factor. And as a result of there are so few assets for this situation, I typically discover myself fielding questions from members of the family who’ve misplaced somebody to QAnon. So typically it’s somebody who is maybe into eccentric web issues already, albeit comparatively innocent ones, like Bitcoin or possibly kind of pure wellness, or different well being issues like oils or possibly a multi-level advertising scheme. And then abruptly they kind of occur throughout one thing on the web that tweaks them in a singular approach. And they are saying – you recognize, possibly it is a story about youngsters being abused, for instance. And possibly generally – that always is one thing that resonates with them due to one thing they’ve skilled personally. And then abruptly they simply fall into QAnon.

And, you recognize, there’s a whole trade constructed up on-line centered on sucking folks into QAnon. And as a result of the clues are so imprecise, you recognize, it simply makes it very easy for somebody to imprint their very own expertise on it and actually have it resonate with them. And so abruptly, you recognize, there will likely be this second the place – you recognize, I saved in contact with a household who misplaced their grownup son to QAnon over a yr. And, you recognize, the son simply got here in sooner or later and mentioned, look; Mom and Dad, I would like you to know that within the subsequent couple of weeks, some fairly huge celebrities are going to be arrested for being pedophiles. And the daddy mentioned, properly, you recognize, ha, ha. OK, you recognize, so long. And then that was actually the beginning of it for him, as his son kind of withdrew from the world and have become obsessive about QAnon.

GROSS: This is an issue that has confronted plenty of households whose youngsters have joined cult teams. And there have been, like, deprogrammers who had been, you recognize, like, their occupation was determining easy methods to change the minds of people that believed false prophets and who had joined teams that had been dangerous to their well being. Like, have a look at Jim Jones. He had all of his followers drink poisoned Flavor Aid, a type of, like, punch, understanding that it will kill them, and it did. Who are folks turning to now to assist their members of the family get out of believing these, you recognize, loopy conspiracy theories?

SOMMER: There actually should not plenty of choices. Even now, you recognize, I feel there are a couple of extra psychologists who’re getting on this work. But, you recognize, specifically, in the course of the Trump administration, when there have been only a few articles even about QAnon – and that is how so many individuals got here to me – there was – it is simply extremely troublesome. In the case of the household I discussed, they took their son to a psychologist, and so they mentioned, you recognize, he is actually into QAnon. He’s speaking about tunnels and cabals and mole youngsters. And the psychologist mentioned, all proper, properly, you recognize, very first thing’s first. I’m going to need to Google this QAnon factor.

And so that they mentioned, properly, jeez, you recognize, if this man would not know what he is doing, what probability do now we have? So the recommendation is usually to, you recognize, keep the connection, which might be very troublesome, and kind of simply hope that the QAnon believer will snap out of it themselves. But, you recognize, it’s extremely troublesome. It kind of requires the member of the family who’s making an attempt to convey somebody out of QAnon to, you recognize, have this unimaginable endurance. And, you recognize, it’s a must to find out about politics and medication and all this kind of stuff. And it is simply – it is loads to ask of individuals.

GROSS: And additionally, you recognize, in case your beliefs aren’t based mostly on logic, logic may have a tough time undoing these beliefs.

SOMMER: Exactly. I imply, a lot of QAnon is about saying do not belief impartial sources of fact – the media, the federal government, academia, scientists – as a result of all of these persons are mendacity, and so they’re conspiring to trick you. And so as a substitute, you need to belief random man with a YouTube channel or random individual with a Twitter or Telegram account. And so the attraction of QAnon, I feel what folks get out of it, the neighborhood, the sense of empowerment, generally that overpowers residing in actuality, and so they kind of simply escape to this fantasy world.

GROSS: You finish your e book by saying that QAnon is not a one-time phenomenon. It’s simply the beginning of the all-consuming conspiracy principle actions to come back. Why do you – what makes you say that?

SOMMER: Sure. Well, I have a look at the state of the best proper now and the way in which that QAnon actually thrived and the way in which that nobody who may have stopped QAnon’s development bothered to do it. I imply, I take into consideration somebody like Donald Trump or maybe Kevin McCarthy or Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson, all of those folks both selected to, you recognize, interact with QAnon in a constructive approach, like Donald Trump making an attempt to whip up their numbers or posting footage of himself memes – QAnon memes of himself, or to look the opposite approach, somebody like Kevin McCarthy who mentioned, properly, I do not know what that’s and simply kind of letting it fester. And I simply do not see anybody who has the authority on the best to quash these conspiratorial beliefs. And, in fact, I imply, most clearly right here, January 6 and this perception that the election in 2020 was stolen is so prevalent on the best that I feel even when it would not – is not often known as QAnon anymore, in the identical approach that Pizzagate went away and kind of reemerged as QAnon, I feel this conspiratorial sense on the best and this stressed and generally violent power goes to stay with us.

GROSS: Well, Will Sommer, thanks a lot on your reporting. And thanks for being with us.

SOMMER: Thank you for having me.

GROSS: Will Sommer is the writer of the brand new e book “Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.” He’s a politics reporter for The Daily Beast. If you’d wish to compensate for FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week’s interviews with actor Ke Huy Quan, who’s nominated for an Oscar for his efficiency in “Everything Everywhere All At Once,” or actor Cate Blanchett and writer-director Todd Field, who had been every nominated for Oscars for his or her work in “Tar,” or Jeanna Smialek, writer of a brand new e book concerning the energy of the Federal Reserve, try our podcast. You’ll discover numerous interviews. And remember our weekly e-newsletter about what occurs behind the scenes on our present with hyperlinks and tales from our producers. You can subscribe at no cost on our web site, freshair.npr.org.

FRESH AIR’s govt producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and evaluations are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed in the present day’s present. I’m Terry Gross.

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