TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. “How To Be A Civil Rights Widow” is a chapter title in a brand new e book by my visitor, Joy-Ann Reid, host of the MSNBC night present “The ReidOut.” The widow is Myrlie Evers. Her husband was Medgar Evers, a civil rights activist who served because the NAACP’s Mississippi subject secretary and risked his life to push for voting rights, desegregation and freedom. Medgar and Myrlie have been each from Mississippi. Myrlie always frightened about her husband’s and kids’s security, with good cause. Their home was firebombed. Later, in June 1963, Medgar Evers was assassinated simply exterior the door of their residence. She heard the gunshot and located her husband bleeding out. He was the primary in a collection of high-profile assassinations. Next got here President Kennedy, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy.

Joy Reid describes her new e book, “Medgar And Myrlie,” as a love story between two Black individuals in Mississippi, their love for his or her kids and the upper find it irresistible took for Black Americans to like America and to struggle for it, even within the state that butchered extra Black our bodies by way of lynching than another. The love story between Myrlie and Medgar Evers can be fraught with pressure, with Myrlie objecting to how a lot he was away from residence, leaving her questioning if he liked his work greater than he liked his household, and infrequently leaving her alone to take care of the fixed telephone calls threatening the lives of her household. After her husband’s dying, Myrlie grew to become an activist, an in-demand public speaker, and finally, the chairman of the board of the NAACP. She gave the invocation at President Obama’s second inauguration.

Joy Reid, welcome to FRESH AIR. I see you so usually on my TV.

JOY-ANN REID: Oh, thanks Terry, it’s so great to be right here.

GROSS: It’s a pleasure to have you ever right here. You assume, and rightfully so, I believe, that Medgar Evers hasn’t actually gotten the popularity he deserves as an essential determine within the Civil Rights Movement. I believe he is extra well-known for getting assassinated than for the work he truly did.

REID: That’s true. I believe that is true. And, you understand, I believe a part of that’s due to the simply momentous 12 months wherein he was murdered, 1963. So many issues occurred in 1963 that sort of overwhelmed information of what occurred of what he did. You begin with this landmark speech that President Kennedy gave hours earlier than Medgar was assassinated in entrance of his residence, a speech wherein John F. Kennedy, the president of the United States, was echoing the language that Medgar Evers, a fellow World War II veteran, was utilizing with the intention to push for civil rights and alter in Mississippi. Then he’s assassinated. The world paid profound consideration to it for that second. But then later that summer season, you will have the march on Washington, the bombing in Birmingham that killed 4 little ladies. And then on the finish of that 12 months, you will have the assassination of the president of the United States. Those issues alone overwhelmed the information of Medgar Evers simply within the second.

And then you will have, two years later, Malcolm X being assassinated. And then 5 years after Medgar, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. is assassinated. And then in between, you’ve got received Freedom Summer and the assassinations of Goodman, Schwerner and Chaney. So there’s so many occasions that occurred each in Mississippi and nationally that his legacy type of grew to become overwhelmed.

GROSS: Give us an outline of the work that he did.

REID: So you begin with Emmett Till, on the time, most high-profile lynching that had taken place in America. This was a 14-year-old boy who had household in Mississippi, had roots in Mississippi, however lived in Chicago, got here down for the summer season to be along with his cousins. He’s murdered for sassing a white girl. It is barely due to Medgar Evers that there was ever a trial, as a result of sometimes within the South, when a Black individual was murdered by a white individual or white individuals, nothing occurred. It wasn’t, in truth, unlawful in a way, to kill Black individuals. You might kill at will for those who have been white as a result of the justice system would by no means maintain you to account.

But Medgar actually believed that individuals ought to be held to account for killing Black individuals, for destroying Black our bodies and Black lives. He is the one who went into the Delta to compel terrified sharecroppers, together with Emmett Till’s uncle, to testify in opposition to white males. He, in fact, then needed to spirit these individuals out of the state of Mississippi. But it is just due to him that the world actually knew about this case and that case ever went to trial.

You speak about Kennedy’s speech. Kennedy is actually echoing the person who had been repeatedly telegraphing him from Mississippi, Medgar Evers, who was demanding – begging – for federal troops to return to Mississippi as a result of Mississippians have been being denied the essential proper to vote.

GROSS: And then there’s James Meredith. And Medgar Evers had utilized to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. And, in fact, he was denied admission as a result of he was Black. They weren’t accepting Black college students. So when James Meredith utilized, testing desegregation, it was Medgar Evers who went proper to his assist. What did he do to assist Meredith get in?

REID: Well, James Meredith truly made the decision to the NAACP to Thurgood Marshall from Medgar and Myrlie Evers’ residence. So he calls and, you understand, it’s Medgar that will get him illustration from the NAACP after, you understand, James Meredith is – he is a really particular man. I interviewed him for the e book, and he is very caustic. And he will get into this argument on the telephone with Thurgood Marshall and hangs up on him. And it is Medgar that claims, you understand what? We may wish to name him again.

GROSS: (Laughter).

REID: And he talks James Meredith down, which was not simple to do. But his brother Charles was related in, like, temperament. So he knew the way to take care of somebody like him. And he manages to name again and get James Meredith the NAACP attorneys that really efficiently get him by means of the court docket circumstances that get him admitted in a really violent, riot-induced method into Ole Miss.

GROSS: Medgar Evers was the Mississippi subject secretary for the NAACP, however his strategy usually diverged from the organizations. The NAACP, underneath Roy Wilkins, outlined its work as being work by means of the courts. But Evers did not at all times wish to work by means of the – I imply, he appreciated that the work was being completed within the courts, however he thought extra was wanted. What have been the sort of protests that he helped arrange?

REID: Well, and, you understand, along with being the sector secretary, he was truly the primary subject secretary. They created the place for him as, partly, a method to discourage him from reapplying to Ole Miss. They noticed in him an activist who had potential, however they actually did not need him to make this utility himself. They have been like, come and work for us. He went to New York, he interviewed with Roy Wilkins they usually gave him the job. What they instructed him to do is return to Mississippi and register individuals for NAACP memberships and register them to vote. But what he understood is that individuals weren’t going to register to vote in the event that they have been being terrorized. You know, not solely might you be evicted from the plantation the place you lived for those who tried to register to vote, you can be lynched for it. And so individuals have been too scared. And he understood that what you wanted first was individuals to develop the braveness to maneuver ahead and demand their citizenship.

GROSS: So lots of people in Mississippi have been too afraid to register for the NAACP or to, you understand, name out racism. But the individuals who have been keen to try this have been the highschool college students and the school college students. And so Medgar Evers needed to work with them. What did the NAACP say to that?

REID: They stated no. (Laughter) Quite merely, they stated this isn’t what we wish. And Medgar was threatened with being fired a number of occasions as a result of he believed that the braveness that was wanted was discovered within the youth. It was younger individuals, fairly frankly, like James Chaney, who, as a 15-year-old, was expelled from faculty for pinning an NAACP membership sticker on his lapel. He was a part of these NAACP youth councils that Medgar was establishing all around the state. And so he is nurturing these younger individuals who needed liberation now. They did not wish to look ahead to court docket circumstances to be listened to by white individuals. They imagine that they might get their liberation for themselves. And that braveness completely existed in faculty college students from Tougaloo and Alcorn and from highschool youngsters. And he believed in them. And his bosses stated, unacceptable. We’re losing cash bailing them out of jail. Stop.

GROSS: I believe it is fascinating the way in which you get to some divisions throughout the civil rights motion on the time, not solely between Evers and the NAACP, however Evers and teams just like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and CORE, the Congress on Racial Equality – teams that have been coming right down to Mississippi. He was involved in regards to the Freedom Riders coming right down to Mississippi as a result of he thought it could jeopardize the work that Mississippi civil rights staff and activists have been already doing. What was he frightened about?

REID: Well, I believe a part of it was that he had this elementary perception that individuals wanted to struggle for liberation for themselves. They did not want the braveness imported in from the North, and that solely when Mississippians themselves have been combating for his or her liberation would that liberation be actual. Because these Northern activists have been going to go residence. When they have been completed with their freedom summer season, they might return. Now, that did not at all times occur, clearly. Goodman and Schwerner by no means went residence, they usually have been taking dangers, super dangers as effectively. But he simply basically believed it needed to come from throughout the Mississippi group.

He additionally believed that they have been simply going to relearn the identical classes he had already realized. He had already labored within the Delta. He already had lived within the Delta. And they have been simply going to point out up in these communities and learn the way terrified individuals have been, and they’d have the identical outcomes he did – not with the ability to register individuals to vote. And that is precisely what occurred.

GROSS: Expand on that. What occurred?

REID: So Bob Moses and different activists got here down. Of course, Bob Moses was this good activist from New York and a math genius. And he comes down, and he winds up working within the Delta, truly utilizing among the infrastructure that Medgar had helped to arrange in these NAACP satellite tv for pc workplaces. And a few of those self same activists joined and helped out. But there have been a variety of Northern activists that have been working there as effectively. But when the numbers got here in from how many individuals have been truly being registered, the numbers have been truly fairly low. And Medgar was annoyed that he had already identified that, and felt that the Northern activists did not fairly perceive the sort of terror that they have been coping with.

GROSS: On the opposite hand, like, the Freedom Rides introduced a lot nationwide consideration to what was taking place within the South.

REID: It completely did. And, you understand, it is fascinating as a result of the Freedom Riders themselves actually needed Dr. King to be on these buses with them, as a result of they thought that they wanted his notoriety with the intention to get the eye. But it turned out white Southerners did the work for them by firebombing buses. By reacting with such super violence and vehemence, it turned the nationwide highlight on the South. And the unique vacation spot of the Freedom Rides was New Orleans. But they did not get by means of Alabama and Mississippi with out super headlines that have been attributable to the violence that was meted out upon them.

GROSS: Let’s take a brief break right here, after which we’ll discuss some extra. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC weekday night present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is known as “Medgar And Myrlie.” We’ll be proper again. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MARVIN GAYE SONG, “INNER CITY BLUES (MAKE ME WANNA HOLLER)”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book, “Medgar And Myrlie,” is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights chief from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his spouse, Myrlie Evers, who always frightened about her husband’s security. After his dying, she grew to become a civil rights activist and finally grew to become the board chair of the group he labored, for the NAACP.

Medgar Evers fought in World War II. He was truly on Omaha Beach on D-Day. After he returned residence, how did he see the U.S, and specifically Mississippi, in another way than he’d seen it earlier than?

REID: Well, you understand, what’s fascinating about Medgar Evers and all of these Black males who fought in World War I and World War II is that after they returned, they’d traveled extra extensively than most white Americans had. He had seen Europe, a spot the place there was no de jure segregation, the place he might have a white girlfriend, and he did, in France, whose mother and father utterly accepted of the connection. He might stroll round freely with out concern of lynching, and even supposing they have been – their models have been nonetheless segregated and white officers and commanders nonetheless spoke to and handled Black servicemen as second-class residents, they formally couldn’t implement Jim Crow in Europe.

And when Medgar got here again, he was already somebody who was on the planet. He was sort of fascinated with the anti-colonial actions in locations like Kenya. He got here again much more satisfied that Mississippi was not solely not the world, it was an aberration on the planet, and that Black individuals have been meant to dwell the way in which he had been capable of dwell freely in Europe. And whereas that did not imply that he might convey his white girlfriend residence to Mississippi – he actually couldn’t – it meant that he ought to have the ability to be handled as a person. And when he arrives again in Decatur, Miss., he will get on the bus in his full uniform and is instructed to go to the again of the bus. And he says, I’m not going to try this. I used to be keen to die for my nation abroad, and I’m not going to return residence and be handled as a second-class citizen. And he took the beating of his life, he stated. But he was a unique man after that.

GROSS: I wish to get to an early a part of his life story when he’s uncovered to a lynching of his father’s pal, and I believe it is a actual, like, important story. Tell us what occurred.

REID: So, the Evers household knew a person named Mr. Tingle who lived on the town, within the city of Decatur. And when Medgar was both 7 or 11, relying on whether or not he or Charles Evers, his brother, who was a really ostentatious fellow, was telling the story, they have been strolling to highschool, they usually noticed – handed by the bloody garments of this gentleman who had been lynched for sassing a white girl, which was one thing that might get you lynched within the South, and significantly in Mississippi. And they’d truly seen this gentleman being dragged by means of the streets earlier in that morning. And he was overwhelmed. He was shot. His physique was shot filled with holes, and the garments have been left behind within the Decatur Fairgrounds as a message to each Black Mississippian that this might occur to you for those who stepped out of line in any method. And that made an impression on him. He by no means forgot it.

GROSS: And it was his father who collected the physique and introduced him to the funeral residence.

REID: Yes. His father’s uncle had a funeral residence. And so his father – who they known as Crazy Jim as a result of he was one of many few Blacks who didn’t bow right down to white individuals, which made white individuals assume he was insane, they usually known as him Crazy Jim – he picked the physique up, took it to the funeral residence, and Medgar requested him, might you be lynched that method? And his father, who, once more, was the strongest individual he knew, was a troublesome man who would stand as much as white individuals, he stated, completely, I might be lynched. And it gave Medgar this sense of an absence of security that his sturdy, huge, you understand, tall dad additionally could not defend him, could not defend him anymore than Willie Tingle might be protected. And it terrified him. And the factor that basically enraged him was the silence, the very fact that there have been no marches, no protests. This gentleman was not spoken about in church on Sunday. He was type of forgotten, as if he simply vanished.

GROSS: Let’s speak about how Medgar and Myrlie first met. They each went to the traditionally Black faculty Alcorn A&M, which later grew to become Alcorn State University. He was 25 as a result of he had already come again from the battle, and she or he was 17. So that, on the time, appeared like a really huge age distinction. They have been elsewhere when it comes to combating for equality. Describe her background.

REID: So Myrlie Evers – Myrlie Louise Beasley, was her unique final identify – she grew up in Vicksburg, Miss., which was a rural city, clearly very segregated, similar to all of Mississippi. And she was raised by her grandmother and her aunt, who’s additionally – whose identify was additionally Myrlie. Her grandmother, specifically, was an enormous affect on her. They taught her to be prim, to be correct, to talk correctly, to play the piano. And so she was taught to be a superb lady, and her grandmother and her aunt gave her three prohibitions when she went to varsity. They stated, you aren’t to this point an upperclassman, a soccer participant or a veteran. Medgar was all three.

GROSS: When she and Medgar Evers began seeing one another, he stated, you are going to be the mom of my kids. I’m going to form you into the lady I need you to be. That made me very uncomfortable. I do not prefer it when males determine they wish to be concerned with girls who they will mentor ‘trigger that finally ends up being a really unequal relationship. You do not wish to be your boyfriend or your husband’s pupil. You wish to be their equal. So what was your response once you heard that?

REID: Well, it is humorous as a result of Myrlie’s response was, you bought an enormous job forward of you, buddy. She was truly offended…

GROSS: Yeah.

REID: …That he stated that. It made her offended, and he would say issues on a regular basis that might annoy her, proper? Like, he was difficult to her in a single sense, is that – you understand, he would discuss to her in regards to the world, about – you understand, about Kenya, in regards to the Mau Mau who have been, you understand, fomenting revolution to get out from underneath the British Empire. And he would discuss in regards to the world and in regards to the world past America, about Europe. And so in that sense, she was intrigued by him, however he additionally infuriated her. He would say issues like that. Those are the issues that might annoy her. But it’s a must to bear in mind, this was additionally the Fifties, when the thought of ladies being the equal of their husbands was not a factor. It was not a factor for white girls, and it was not a factor for Black girls. And so whereas it did infuriate and annoy her, it wasn’t a deal-breaker. And that is partly due to the period.

GROSS: And she stated, we argued like loopy. They fought over his work. What have been her objections?

REID: Well, you understand, Myrlie actually did aspire to be a Fifties housewife. When she fell in love with this man, she thought they might go off into the sundown and he’d be an insurance coverage salesman. And in truth, he actually received a job as an insurance coverage salesman. And she thought – you understand, she did not wish to be the place they have been residing, Mount Bayou, which was within the Delta, which she hated – the bugs, the warmth. She simply could not take it. She needed to be within the metropolis. She was bored. She was depressing. She was lonely as a result of he was out promoting insurance coverage all day.

But she was terrified as a result of whereas he was promoting insurance coverage for T.R.M. Howard’s insurance coverage firm – and T.R.M. Howard was a massively influential man amongst Black civil rights activists. He was an activist, but additionally a businessman and a rich man. And she hated the truth that he was risking his life promoting freedom and civil rights with insurance coverage and telling these Delta residents, hear, you will have rights accruable to you as residents, whereas he is saying you additionally have to have these insurance policies in order that your loved ones can survive economically. She was terrified, and she or he was offended that she felt he was selecting this work and this civil rights work over her and their kids.

GROSS: Well, let’s take one other break right here after which we’ll discuss some extra. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is known as “Medgar And Myrlie.” We’ll be proper again after a brief break. I’m Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. Let’s get again to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book, “Medgar And Myrlie,” is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights chief from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his spouse, Myrlie Evers, who always frightened about her husband’s security. After his dying, she grew to become a civil rights activist and finally grew to become the board chair of the NAACP, the group her husband had labored for.

One of the fights Medgar and Myrlie had was over dinner company as a result of he was at all times bringing residence individuals from the NAACP and generally celebrities like Lena Horne, and she or he was anticipated to cook dinner an additional dinner for them. And she stated, we should not have the cash for this. We’re struggling. And he accused her of not figuring out the way to handle the cash effectively, which simply infuriated her as a result of she was very, very cautious with cash. And is that this the time that they really got here to blows?

REID: Absolutely. This is without doubt one of the most type of, you understand, putting and risky type of elements of their marriage. So at one level, she says to him, we’re poor, we do not have the cash to do that. And he accused her of not managing the cash effectively. And she received so offended that she hauled off and she or he grabbed a frying pan and hit him with it, and he struck her again. And she was so shocked at this slap that it sort of made each of them stun into silence. And this was the low level of their marriage.

They wound up driving to her aunt and her mother’s home. They have been, at that time, residing collectively as a result of her grandma was getting older, they usually have been speaking about divorcing, they usually have been on the level the place they thought perhaps we won’t do that. And it was a member of the senior NAACP management who was like a father to them who truly recommended them as, like, a wedding counselor and surrogate father. And so there was some extent at which they simply determined they have been going to attempt to make it work. And she determined she was going to attempt to make it work and assist his work. And that got here on the very, very finish. Really not lengthy earlier than he died. The ultimate 12 months of his life was when she lastly accepted that this was his mission.

GROSS: One day or evening, I neglect which it was, when Medgar was working, Myrlie was at residence with the kids, and the home was firebombed. A Molotov cocktail was thrown by means of the window. She was pregnant on the time. How did she reply when she realized what was taking place and the home began to catch on fireplace?

REID: Well, Myrlie, you understand, is beginning to nod off. She hears this crash and goes out and sees fireplace on her entrance garden. Obviously, she’s extremely startled, and there had been these vehicles that might move by slowly rolling in entrance of the home day after day after day. And this time, somebody had thrown a Molotov cocktail out of one among them. So at first, in fact, she was terrified. Her subsequent door neighbor, who was a superb pal of hers, Jean Wells (ph), runs out and the 2 of them begin turning the fireplace hose on the flames, they usually put them out. Luckily, the kids did not even get up, but it surely actually did convey residence to her that the dying threats have been actually coming to roost. And this was simply weeks earlier than Medgar was truly assassinated. So it was a horrible premonition.

But then she felt offended as a result of when the police arrived, the white cops, they questioned her, wanting on the gasoline can and basically accusing her of doing it as a publicity stunt and faking it after which writing it off as only a joke that someone had performed. There was no empathy, there was clearly no dedication to analyze and it simply introduced residence to her as soon as once more that there was no justice for Black individuals in Mississippi.

GROSS: When President Kennedy gave a speech asking Congress to enact what principally grew to become the Civil Rights Act of 1964 after Kennedy’s assassination, so when Kennedy gave this speech, you understand, asking Congress to enact laws giving all Americans the fitting to be served in amenities that have been open to the general public and to hunt larger safety for the fitting to vote and extra totally implement the Supreme Court’s ruling to desegregate the faculties, that simply, like, flared up racist assaults within the South. And so it was a win for Medgar Evers and the motion, but it surely additionally elevated the threats, proper?

REID: Absolutely. And, you understand, the Klan completely despatched a message in assassinating Medgar Evers actually hours after that speech. The factor that President Kennedy stated that I believe stung the racist South probably the most is that he stated not solely did he imagine that Black residents had the fitting to equal therapy and to equal entry to lodging, however that he deliberate to make it so with laws. He promised to move a invoice.

Now, Medgar had truly been making ready his testimony to go to Washington to testify earlier than the House Judiciary Committee about pushing for such a invoice. Part of the work that he was doing and a part of the fixed telegrams to D.C. have been demanding that they do one thing. And one of many issues they needed completed was a invoice. And so, you understand, the message that was despatched within the hours after the – that speech was that we will actual retribution. And there have been truly three assaults that befell – or not less than one which was didn’t come to fruition. But they did them so shut in time that the FBI believed that these a number of assaults have been a message from the Klan, together with the assassination of Medgar Evers.

GROSS: The assassination occurred one evening whereas Myrlie and the kids have been residence, they have been in mattress. She was anticipating her husband. She hears this loud gunshot. She – you understand, she acknowledges that is hassle, you understand, runs to the door and finds her husband’s physique on the threshold of the door. And he is bleeding, and it seems to be like he is bleeding out, which he was. Tell us extra about what you understand about that evening.

REID: Well, you understand, the kids have been – they received to remain up. You know, the three Evers kids. Well, Van was a child. He was solely 3. But the 2 older kids have been allowed to sit down up and watch President Kennedy’s speech. And they have been so proud to listen to the speech as a result of it used and echoed among the language that their very own dad had given in his landmark speech that he gave on Mississippi tv, which was – had by no means occurred. People had by no means seen a Black individual, you understand, converse on tv earlier than. And to listen to President Kennedy echoing their father’s phrases felt so nice to them. And in order that they have been excited. And they have been allowed, then, to remain up a little bit later, the older two, who have been 9 and eight, to observe a little bit bit extra TV, a little bit little bit of leisure TV earlier than their dad got here residence.

And a little bit after midnight, they hear their father’s automobile pull up, they usually’re excited as a result of he would usually convey them residence sweets or Cracker Jacks, you understand, one thing – a little bit present when he would come residence. And in order that they have been excited, considering, oh, what’s he going to convey us? And abruptly, they heard the shot. And it wakes Myrlie up, who had been mendacity down on her mattress. They have been all in her room watching TV. And she was holding Van. And then he – they’d all – she had began to nod off. It startles her awake, and all the household sort of go to the door. Now, at first, the children did what they have been educated to do. They went to the ground. They did what their father had taught them. But after they hear their mom scream as she makes it to the door and sees her husband mendacity within the carport, this horrifying scream makes all the kids run to her.

And in order that they’re all standing there, watching him attempt to drag himself on this super pool of blood that is later described as if someone had butchered a hog. And he is received his key out in his hand, and he is attempting to get to the door, however he cannot. And she’s received her little kids standing there screaming, you understand, begging him to rise up. And then they hear a – they heard – they’d heard a second shot, which they thought is perhaps the gunman coming to kill all of them. But it seems that was Mr. Wells, the next-door neighbor, taking pictures within the air to scare the gunman away. And Mr. Wells and their neighbor throughout the road, whose husband was Myrlie’s different finest pal, they arrive with one other neighbor, they usually put Medgar on the mattress of Reena, the little lady’s mattress, they usually put him on that mattress and take him to the hospital. And Myrlie by no means noticed or spoke with him once more till she noticed him in a casket.

GROSS: There was a extremely giant funeral procession after he died, and there was almost a police riot as a result of there have been so many individuals. Would you describe that?

REID: You know, it was an amazing outpouring. You know, some 5,000 individuals got here, they usually packed into the auditorium, the area the place they normally did their mass conferences, but it surely was over capability. It was blazing scorching, virtually 100 levels in Mississippi, and folks have been exterior who could not get in. And then afterward, they’d gotten permission, the organizers of the funeral, to do a peaceable march with him as a result of his physique was going to be taken to a prepare station in order that it might be despatched to Washington, D.C. so he might be buried at Arlington National Cemetery, one thing that additionally prompted a lot of rage amongst white supremacists within the United States. But this peaceable procession rapidly turned violent when among the younger individuals who have been marching on the again started to sing freedom songs.

GROSS: They have been prohibited from singing at this funeral procession.

REID: Absolutely. They have been instructed they might solely do a quiet, mournful march, they usually have been to not sing freedom songs in any respect. But these younger individuals began singing “This Little Light Of Mine.” And it was Medgar’s favourite freedom music. And as soon as that began, the batons began flying, and the police reacted violently and began beating marchers, who then began operating towards downtown Jackson. And earlier than lengthy, it was almost a riot.

GROSS: Well, we’ve to take one other break right here. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Joy-Ann Reid, host of the MSNBC weekday night present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is known as “Medgar And Myrlie.” We’ll be proper again. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JULIAN LAGE GROUP & JULIAN LAGE’S “IOWA TAKEN”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book, “Medgar And Myrlie,” is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights chief from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his spouse, Myrlie Evers, who grew to become a civil rights activist after his dying.

You have an entire chapter known as “The Rules For A Civil Rights Widow.” What have been the, quote, “rules” she needed to study or play by or create ‘trigger she was, like, the primary well-known civil rights widow?

REID: Right. So Myrlie Evers, you understand, needed to write this playbook for herself as a result of Medgar Evers was assassinated two years earlier than Malcolm X and 5 years earlier than Dr. King. So there actually wasn’t one other person who she might, you understand, use as a template. The solely factor closest to it was Mamie Till-Mobley. But Mamie Till was a mother, not a widow. And, you understand, she additionally needed to make sure that she was capable of set up Medgar’s legacy. And so something you probably did, for those who weren’t wearing sure method, for those who weren’t correctly demure, for those who appeared offended fairly than simply in grieving, for those who appeared too loud or too gentle or too something, too, you understand, however particularly too offended, she knew that it could derail what she genuinely believed that Medgar deserved, which is to have his legacy established for the sacrifice that he had made.

GROSS: She each grew to become well-known, you understand, in a short time due to the assassination and in addition very depressed. It’s a troublesome mixture to take care of, melancholy and fame on the similar time.

REID: Absolutely.

GROSS: And she’s in – in fact, in mourning.

REID: Absolutely. And, you understand, residing in that home made it worse – proper? – as a result of, you understand, that home had been designed for safety. It was – it is the one home on this block that was known as Guynes Street on the time. And it was designed with no entrance door particularly for safety. You needed to come within the aspect door in order that they might see who was coming. And so she already lived with this fixed menace, this concern of menace. And then it occurred. The factor they’d feared probably the most occurred. And she needed to take care of that publicly as a result of she’s now a public determine.

You have, you understand, she’d stroll out her entrance door and Dan Rather could be standing there with an entire CBS group eager to interview her. They have been always in her home, out and in of her home. She had a LIFE journal photographer following her throughout as she’s making ready to bury her husband. She could not bury him within the small plot that they’d purchased in Mississippi. It needed to be completed in D.C. so he’d be this type of publicly buried individual the place she could not simply go and sit with him. And it was painful for her. And she, some days, did not wish to get away from bed. She was utilizing sleeping drugs to attempt to get to sleep at evening, and she or he was simply misplaced on this sea of anger and rage and melancholy. And there have been moments the place she could not get out of it.

GROSS: But she does sort of overcome the melancholy. She turns into an activist. She turns into an in-demand public speaker. Eventually, she turns into the board chair of the NAACP. And she will get a variety of accolades. She’s, like, Woman of the Year in Ms. Magazine in 1998, one of many hundred most fascinating Black girls of the twentieth century in Ebony in 1998. What got here first for you – wanting to write down a e book in regards to the Evers or assembly Myrlie Evers and deciding, oh, I ought to write a e book?

REID: Meeting Myrlie Evers, Myrlie Evers-Williams now. She did fall in love once more, however Medgar Evers was clearly the love of her life. And that is what she instructed me that really was the impetus for this e book. The profundity of that love, the depth of it, even 60 years later, is definitely sort of mind-blowing once you discuss to her. And I believed that was worthy of writing extra about. And I additionally do really feel that Medgar Evers is given quick shrift in our historic reminiscence. This was an amazing man. This was an extremely courageous man. And we dwell in an age of a lot cowardice as individuals refuse to face up for our democracy in even small methods as a result of they’re afraid of a tweet, you understand, a imply tweet. And these individuals have been dealing with the Klan, a statewide spy company and the fixed menace of being destitute. And they did it. And they have been 20-somethings and 30-somethings who had this unbelievable braveness. And so I needed to write down a e book about love and about braveness, and hopefully that is what I did.

GROSS: You know, it is unhappy to say – and also you speak about this so much in your present on MSNBC – individuals are dealing with a variety of dying threats in the present day…

REID: Absolutely.

GROSS: …Because of their political opinions, particularly coming from the far proper.

REID: Absolutely. And, you understand, I take into consideration, you understand, people who find themselves managing to face up no matter that. Right? I do not agree with these individuals politically, however Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger – each former members of Congress who’re keen to face up and converse regardless of the dying threats, proper? I take into consideration individuals on the opposite aspect of the aisle, the Tennessee 3 – Justin Jones, Justin Pearson and Gloria Johnson. How courageous are they in a state like Tennessee the place they’re a brilliant minority and the place they’re keen to protest in favor of defending our kids from gun violence and taking the implications and being, you understand, valorous within the face of the threats and the anger and the craze that all of them get?

GROSS: Well, let’s take one other break right here. If you are simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut” and writer of the brand new e book “Medgar And Myrlie,” about Medgar and Myrlie Evers. We’ll be proper again. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book, “Medgar And Myrlie,” is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights chief from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his spouse, Myrlie Evers, who finally grew to become the board chair of the group he labored for, the NAACP.

I wish to discuss extra about your background, ‘trigger I see you on a regular basis and I do not actually know that a lot about you. I do know that your father was from the Democratic Republic of Congo and got here…

REID: Yes.

GROSS: …To the U.S. for faculty and that your mom is from Guyana. So with a father from Congo and a mom from Guyana, what have been their attitudes towards racial politics in America, and the way did that evaluate to your pals and their mother and father?

REID: It’s very fascinating. We have been among the – there was solely a small variety of international blacks within the city the place I grew up. I grew up – I used to be born in Brooklyn, N.Y., however once I was 2 years outdated, my mother, my sister and I moved to Denver, Colo., my huge sister. She introduced her tots to Denver, and my brother was born there. And, you understand, there have been 4 African households, households with African surnames – the Lomenas (ph), the Okekes (ph), the Akias (ph), and there was yet another household. I’m going to neglect their final identify, however there have been solely 4 of us, so all of us sort of know one another, proper? And we have been the one Caribbean household. And whereas, you understand, my father was African, he was an absentee father, so we actually grew up as Caribbean youngsters. And my Caribbean cousins would come and stick with us each summer season. And we have been, like, a – we have been type of like our personal – the Guynes Street gang we speak about within the e book was the little block of all the youngsters that grew up on Medgar’s block. We have been, like, the Carroll (ph) gang, proper?

And the attitudes that my mother and father had have been starkly completely different from one another. My father was a giant Reaganite. He liked Reagan. He was a conservative. And he did not actually speak about race in America, however he was very targeted on apartheid and on the opposition to apartheid as a result of he labored in South Africa most of his profession. He wasn’t an amazing dad, however – so I might discover different issues to speak about him – discuss with about – with him. And apartheid was one among them. And he was very deeply anti-apartheid, as was my mother. She was far more targeted on the apartheid in America as a result of when she got here right here from Guyana, she skilled racism, like, virtually off the bat. And that was in New York, so you’ll be able to solely think about the way it was within the South. And she would speak about her experiences – not a lot, however a little bit bit. And I believe her perspective was that it was virtually like an sickness, that she simply did not perceive why individuals would spend a lot time working themselves up about what Black individuals have been doing.

GROSS: Your mom, who I perceive you have been very near, died once you have been 17. I believe it was breast most cancers.

REID: Yes.

GROSS: And you and your siblings have been despatched to your aunt, who parented you after that. And one of many modifications in your life was that you simply needed to go to church 4 days per week, which is one thing apparently you were not used to. How did that change your life in a technique or one other?

REID: Well, it is fascinating. I imply, I grew up very spiritual. My mom was a – you understand, she was a superb Methodist. I imply, she had modified us from Catholic to Methodist as a result of the ceilings have been decrease. She was an Anglican when she got here to the United States and took us to, like, the closest factor to it, a Catholic church. And my sister and I, as toddlers, we liked the echo. So we’d, like, type of make noise as a result of we needed to listen to ourselves echo. And she stated, oh, you understand, we’d wish to go to the low-ceiling church. So we ended up in a Methodist church that was – you understand, it was an hour out and in. You received residence in time for the Bronco recreation. And it was type of low-key church that was all in regards to the red-letter elements of the Bible – love your neighbor, love the immigrant, that sort of factor.

But once I received to Brooklyn and my Auntie Dolly’s church, it was fire-and-brimstone – it wasn’t even Baptist. It was evangelical, and it was 4 nights per week – Bible research, younger individuals evening, common church. And, you understand, it was simply on and on and on, a number of, a number of nights. And it was intense, and it was much more than I used to be used to. And so I assume the one method it modified me is it in all probability made me extra secular and made me query a little bit bit extra the type of precepts of issues ‘trigger I used to be very spiritual, however I undoubtedly did not assume organized faith was essentially for me.

GROSS: So what dilemma did that pose for you? Your aunt is beneficiant sufficient to take you and your siblings in to her residence, and on the similar time, you are actually uncomfortable along with her method of doing faith. So, like, you wish to not go to church 4 days per week, and also you disagree with among the ideas that you simply’re being taught, however you in all probability do not wish to insult your aunt both, and she or he was so deeply trustworthy in that faith. So how did you steadiness wanting to say, like, your independence and your individual viewpoint whereas respecting your aunt?

REID: And additionally, I imply, I used to be in mourning, too, so I liked…

GROSS: Yes, proper.

REID: …Being along with her.

GROSS: Of course.

REID: So it was troublesome. I imply, the factor is, I used to be an obedient youngster. I went, and I did the 4 nights per week, after which once I felt prefer it wasn’t essentially for me and I’d been there for, you understand, in all probability a little bit over – near a 12 months, I moved by myself, and, you understand, received an house as a result of, you understand, my – the way in which I used to be introduced up as a West Indian youngster is you do what your mother and father inform you to do or your auntie tells you to do, otherwise you discover your individual place. And that was the alternatives that you simply should make. And so I made a decision to, you understand, nonetheless see her on a regular basis and be along with her, and I really like my Auntie Dolly, however I made a decision to dwell by myself. And I used to be sort of a solo child at 18, residing in my very own house in Brooklyn, and it was an fascinating journey, and I needed to develop up actually fast.

GROSS: You have been an obedient youngster. How did you study to change into disobedient?

REID: (Laughter) You know, I’m disobedient in my argument (laughter), however when…

GROSS: That’s proper. Yeah.

REID: …But in relation to my elders, I’m all about respect and respecting my elder family. But when it comes to – my mom at all times inspired us to be disobedient in our ideas. Like, she was a type of girls who – what’d they are saying? – a lady who’s complacent or a lady who’s obedient makes no change. Like, my mother was that individual. She was extremely adventurous.

And she was disobedient in her personal method. She left New York and went all the way in which to Denver to do her personal factor. We used to do these countless automobile journeys the place we – she would pile the children in, and we’d drive, you understand, all the way in which to Oaxaca in Mexico ‘trigger she was doing a factor. She simply – we have been transportable. She took us along with her in all places that she went. We went all around the nation in our station wagon. And so she was this adventurous soul, and I undoubtedly inherited that from her.

And she inspired us to assume, to learn. We would spend, you understand, all of a weekend within the library with the ability to take no matter books we needed and empowered us to decide on books that we liked and to learn and to assume. She inspired me once I stated I needed to be a author. She purchased me this outdated typewriter, and I might simply bang out my little – what I believed have been going to be bestsellers.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: And I might write them and needed to be a novelist. And she simply was so encouraging and simply such a fan of us considering. And, you understand, she would throw these unbelievable dinner events. And we have been – you understand, we weren’t allowed to hang around the entire evening, however we might come through the early half when she would have the dinner events, and we might interact in dialog. We would discuss politics. We might chop it up with the grown people and provides our opinions. And so she at all times inspired her kids to be opinionated, and I undoubtedly obliged (laughter).

GROSS: Joy Reid, it has been nice to speak with you. Congratulations in your new e book, and thanks a lot for coming to FRESH AIR.

REID: Thank you for having me.

GROSS: Joy Reid is the host of the MSNBC present “The ReidOut.” Her new e book is known as “Medgar And Myrlie: Medgar Evers And The Love Story That Awakened America.”

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we’ll speak about a topic you in all probability do not take into consideration – the freight rail system – till harmful accidents, just like the derailment in East Palestine that launched noxious smoke right into a group. Our visitor might be Topher Sanders, who investigated the intensive security dangers and cover-ups throughout the freight rail system in a collection of articles in ProPublica. I hope you may be a part of us.

To sustain with what’s on the present and get highlights of our interviews, observe us on Instagram, @nprfreshair. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I’m Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THIS LITTLE LIGHT OF MINE”)

THE FREEDOM SINGERS: (Singing) This little mild of mine, I’m going to let it shine. Oh, this little mild of mine, I’m going to let it shine, let it shine. This little mild of mine, I’m going to let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine. Oh, this little mild of mine, I’m going to let it shine. Oh, this little mild of mine, I’m going to let it shine, let it shine. This little mild of mine, I’m going to let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine. Oh, in all places I’m going, Lord, I’m going to let it shine. Oh, in all places I’m going, Lord, I’m going to let it shine, let it shine. Everywhere I’m going, Lord, I’m going to let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine. Oh, I’ve received the sunshine of freedom. I’m going to let it shine. Oh, I’ve received the sunshine of freedom. I’m going to let it shine, let it shine. I’ve received the sunshine of freedom. I’m going to let it shine, let it shine, let it shine…

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