MR. SAPAN: Oh, thanks a lot for having me. It’s a deal with.

MS. ELLISON: I wish to begin with the ebook. What–why did you write it, or why did you write it now? And is it honest to say that this was analysis in your third act?

MR. SAPAN: And the reply to that’s sure. It was analysis for my third act. It was maybe born extra of hysteria than the rest, slightly curiosity. As I got here to the tip of what can be my standard profession, I received very thinking about what I’d do subsequent. I started to look at mates, colleagues, associates who have been in that period, and a few of them have been doing terrific issues. And I turned enamored of them after which started to only take a look at the entire group, together with those I knew and those I did not know; and therefore, the ebook was born.

MS. ELLISON: So, you’re taking 60 folks, and a few are well-known like Jane Fonda and Alan Alda, however some are lesser identified. We have Donzella Washington who turned the oldest graduate of Alabama A&M University at 80. Tell us about what linked all of those 60 people.

MR. SAPAN: You know, I feel, if it’s honest to say, I used to be truly talking very lately to one of many folks featured within the ebook named Paul Dillon, who served in Vietnam, just–and got here out of the battle and mentioned that everybody checked out him like he was a nasty man. And he turned a marketing consultant at an actual skilled, and he then actually developed an incubator for vets, simply an instance of somebody like Donzella Washington, who you talked about, and plenty of others. And if there’s one, I suppose, constant thread within the folks, it’s that they aren’t, in a traditional sense, placing their ft up. They’re not resting on laurels. They’re not wanting backward. They’re actually deeply wanting ahead, and, in lots of circumstances, they report that they’re more–excused the overused word–engaged, enthusiastic, affected, and affecting than they have been on this kind of standard commonplace a part of their careers, and it’s each a curiosity and it is–it’s a little bit of an inspiration.

MS. ELLISON: It’s fascinating. How did you discover a few of these folks? I’d love so that you can inform us the story of Andrea Peterson, for instance. It was so fascinating to learn that.

MS. ELLISON: I questioned the place did you–where did you get a few of these tales?

MR. SAPAN: Well, you already know, I did–I did do analysis, and I did have the assistance of somebody doing analysis, as a result of Andrea Peterson was a loopy story. You see an image of her. She was in a hearth as a child, after which she had a relatively, I suppose you’ll be able to say, standard profession. And then, she turned a firewoman, you already know, an EMT particular person.

And, you already know, it’s just–son of a gun, at that age to say I’m going to be a–fight fires is admittedly fairly wild.

There was truly another person who labored in media, just like us, and she or he labored for 30 years in media as a journalist after which did one other gig in journalism. But she advised me–Ellen Weiss–that she had at all times cherished America’s nationwide parks, and so she turned a volunteer park ranger.

I occur to know her via her husband, in order that was fortuitous, however a mix of these in ample proof, folks that I knew via connections, after which some research–and then some had been, frankly, coated in media.

There’s a beautiful story of a man who was very shut along with his spouse, actually buddies, and his spouse handed away. He had a job, advert he was bereft afterwards, and he then bought the smallest circulation newspaper in America and have become not William Randolph Hearst, however the writer of the smallest-circulation print newspaper in America and is simply loving it to loss of life.

MS. ELLISON: That’s nice. That’s simply so nice. So, what’s the–what’s the most important lesson that you simply discovered in profiling all these folks? And do you will have any recommendation for somebody who’s fascinated by their subsequent chapter? What would you say to somebody who is considering that?

MR. SAPAN: Well, let me first stipulate that and the furthest factor on the planet from an authoritative gerontologist, psychologist, sociologist, or something with “gist” in it. So, it is, actually, I come by it as a layperson having labored in media.

I can identify names, and I’ll preserve riffing names, they usually is probably not that significant. But it does appear that, to say it merely, benefiting others a bit has an intoxicating and circulating impact and might make one really feel higher about themselves on the planet. And many individuals within the ebook are really, inch by inch, making the world a little bit of a greater place, and another folks are–I wouldn’t say dwelling out their fantasies, however they’re attending to do what may need been resident of their want however by no means actualized. Those two issues appear value doing if one has the means and functionality.

MS. ELLISON: And so, how are you aware if you’ve reached that stage? And are you able to discuss for your self the way you got here to the choice to step down from AMC?

MR. SAPAN: Well, that was–that was kind of deliberate and inevitable and arguably actuarial, and in order that was–that was–the finish was a great time, and it was a beautiful transient 36 years. And I’m indebted to all of the individuals who based the corporate and who have been on the firm.

And, Sarah, I’m going to ask you rhetorically–you don’t must answer–what–and forgive me for doing this, but it surely actually does strike me as true and virtually common is what did you ever consider doing in another way in your life; what did you consider doing subsequent, what may need you carried out if you weren’t a media journalist, an esteemed media journal. My guess is there’s a few solutions. Don’t reply for those who don’t wish to. That’s not a part of the discount, but–

MS. ELLISON: Yeah. I’ll preserve that to myself, however I see the train. I perceive the train.

MR. SAPAN: Yes. You know, I’ve gone round, and once I’ve requested folks that query, there’s at all times a solution and–

MR. SAPAN: And the solutions are, they’re actually regularly sentimental, religious, and fantastical a bit, and so I feel these are good pointers.

MS. ELLISON: Fair sufficient. I feel that’s a goo–that’s a great broad set of pointers for folks to observe.

So, to your outdated day job for a bit, for those who’ll–if you’ll enable us–

MS. ELLISON: –you are credited as serving to to usher within the golden age of tv, and in some ways, AMC was a primary cable model of HBO with exhibits like “Mad Men,” “Killing Eve,” “Better Call Saul,” “Breaking Bad, which is so near and dear to my heart. But what do you look for? What did you look for in a pitch, in a script, and what is the thing that you find that is the most essential ingredient for a hit?

MR. SAPAN: Sure. Well, let me first acknowledge that the wisdom of others is largely what I relied upon in my–it’s really true. It’s not just a standard statement. The wisdom of my colleagues was, first and foremost. No kidding. It’s not a company of one; it’s a company of 2,000. I think–and they made it all happen. I can name their names, but it would take a couple of hours.

So, you know, I think that there is a little bit of sort of just truth of voice that comes through, I think, narrative when people respond to it. It’s like meeting a person who is real or genuine, and you say, “I actually like that particular person.” And so, there’s something in a script, I think, that is true. It rings human. It rings essential. It rings not imitative, and that’s easy to say. And then there are the brilliant craftspeople who make it happen.

And like you, I’m an extraordinary fan of “Breaking Bad” and “Better Call Saul,” and so to say that is simple–but Vince Gilligan, who created it, and with his partner, Peter Gould, went on to make it, I think, sort of make magic happen. I don’t know how it happens. It really does feel a little magical.

You know, I knew someone who knew Sam Shepard, the playwright, and she was his girlfriend for a while. And she said–this is years and years ago. She said Sam would sit down at his then typewriter and work for a few days and sort of spit out “Buried Child” or, you know–and it seemed like it was sort of passing–as I heard it, passing through him, like he was not crafting it as he was funneling it. That’s a little easy and a little convenient. But I do think there’s a little bit of people who have that sort of capability where they really do–

MR. SAPAN: –are like, a bit, vessels for somehow the constellation of stuff that makes for something brilliant that renders on the screen, you know. And then they’re, of course, professional, and they hire the right people that cast, direct. They know how to do that. But it does begin, I think, with like great writing. It’s somewhere resident inside the person.

MS. ELLISON: You had so much success at AMC Networks. “Walking Dead” was, if not the most popular or biggest hit on television, one of the most. How did you convince creators to come to you and to come to AMC rather than go to HBO or to Netflix? What kind of a pitch did you have for them? What were you offering them that others might not, besides money or other sorts of, you know, specific–specifics?

MR. SAPAN: You know, an honest answer is at the time–am I speaking over these extraordinary clips of walkers? I can’t do that. I would never interrupt a walker.

MS. ELLISON: No. We have to give them their time, and then now please, please continue.

MR. SAPAN: You don’t mess with a walker, man, because you’ll make noise, and then you will live to regret it.

But, you know, it’s interesting. When we began, there was not necessarily a ready home for some of the materials. So “Mad Men” had been with Matthew Weiner for six or seven years, and no one wanted to do it. So, it was less challenging. It then became more challenging as television went through its own evolution.

And I think what AMC had to offer and still has to offer that’s unique is–some of the streaming services, as we all know, are huge. They really are huge, and they have options for absolutely everyone. And I think it’s fair to say that AMC and its streaming services offered a front–a store window for creative material that was unmissable. It didn’t disappear. You didn’t get your one day and then you have to go find it. It really was in evidence and in the store, the front of the store window because it was a boutique and it wasn’t a large store. And I think that’s attractive to creative people, apart from money, who want to see their work attended to.

MS. ELLISON: Did you ever cross on something that you simply got here to remorse?

MR. SAPAN: Yes. Do you thoughts if I not point out it, lest I’ve a nasty afternoon?

MS. ELLISON: Well, it’s obviously your choice. I would love to hear it, but we’ll let you off the hook if you don’t want to.

MR. SAPAN: I just don’t want to appear really dumb in front of whomever is paying attention to this. Yeah. Because one is bound to make–there’s bound to be omissions. and some of them are–they’re actually irreconcilable, if you want the truth. They’re just almost irreconcilable.

MR. SAPAN: And I don’t want to–I don’t want to go through that trauma again. I’ve done it once.

MS. ELLISON: It was dangerous sufficient the primary time, I suppose.

MS. ELLISON: So, we’re talking about that golden age of television. Do you think that that is over? There’s a lot of discussion now about how you–there’s such a variety of tastes, and some people are trying to appeal to everyone. You’d say that Netflix would be an example of that, or do you need to be more specialized now and find your niche? I guess, in other words, the question is, how do you balance quality and quantity in today’s world?

MR. SAPAN: Yeah. Well, I’ll–a two-part reply, for those who can tolerate it.

MR. SAPAN: At AMC, we set up streaming services that were targeted. So, we set up one called Sundance Now, which was related to the spirit of Sundance, and we operated the Sundance channel. We set up one called Acorn, which was British mysteries and dramas for fans of that. There’s one called “ALLBLK” that was founded by Bob Johnson, and that speaks for itself. And there’s one called “Shudder,” which is for horror fans. So those are specialized streaming services.

But I think that the–this–the notion of quality gone away is slightly overstated, and if one looks at the shows currently that are–yesterday I think the Producers Guild Awards were identified and the Directors Guild Awards–it was Producers Guild, I think, yesterday. And, boy, the lineup of shows was–it was just spectacular. It was insanely good. It was–

MR. SAPAN: So, yeah, there’s a–there’s an abundance of material. But, you know, I would say, do you think “White Lotus” is good? I think “White Lotus” is spectacular–

MR. SAPAN: –just as an example, because it was recognized not on–not an AMC show. And so, I–by the way, I don’t think “The Patient” on Hulu with Steve Carell necessarily got the, quote, “love” that it–that I might have given it, but I think there’s so–“Poker Face” just is a relatively new show. There are too many great shows, in my view, to name. I think it’s–we may be in the double golden age, but maybe we’ve gotten a little bit accustomed to it.

MS. ELLISON: And so, we have so many tech companies getting into the entertainment business, Apple, Amazon. You could argue that Netflix is something of a tech company. How has that changed the creative process and the risk-taking that we associate with great media and great entertainment? Do you think it’s–do you think the culture has changed because of those new companies that have come in?

MR. SAPAN: You know, I think they probably–one could argue that they have–you’re a business–that they have a sort of genetic position that is advantageous because they have a system that goes beyond video, and that’s hard to argue, at least conceptually.

I think if one looks at the material that is on the non–if you want to call them “tech companies”–and I’ll begin with HBO and Showtime or Paramount Global or STARZ or AMC–there is a tremendous amount of material, I think, distinctive to those services. And so I think the tech companies have their own position, and it will undergo, I believe, evolution. And I didn’t mention Disney and Disney+ and Nat Geo and all their subcategories within it, their brands, but it sure seems to me like they’re making great material. It’s tending, as life goes forward, to be more brand-identified and distinctive for each, and the tech companies will do what they do. And at the moment, it’s pretty darn good.

You know, Apple TV+ is doing some wonderful–just wonderful material, but they–I get confused sometimes about where’s where, but I think if you watch “Slow Horses,” I think it’s–if I’m not mistaken–

MR. SAPAN: Gary Oldman. You know, inarguably wonderful, and it–to me, inarguably wonderful. And but–so true is of Hulu and so true of HBO and so true of Showtime and so true of AMC.

MS. ELLISON: You just rattled off a variety of different–there’s so–there’s sort of seven or eight major streaming options, and we could see even more consolidation in the near future. How many major streaming services is a sustainable number that the U.S. market can handle? And out of the big players, where do you see consolidation happening? Paramount comes up so often in these conversations.

MR. SAPAN: Yeah. You know, you may be a better student of all this than me, no kidding, you know, because I think there’s a few things happening all at once, it seems. One is that–that there is some, quote, “bundling” of services within companies that are owned and sometimes outside. So, there’s discounting and price advantage to buy groups of them, which changes, I think, a consumer appetite/tolerance. You can buy more if you get a deal.

And there are special interests as opposed to general interest, and not to slide into an analogy, but there are stores of any sort that serve everybody. And then there are stores that serve very few, both online and in bricks and mortar. So someone in New York City, where I live, can go shop pretty happily at a department store which is–sounds anachronistic, but they seem to be intact, Bloomingdale’s, Macy’s, et cetera, and then walk up the street. And these are high end, of course, and you can go into Lululemon and be guaranteed what you’re looking for.

And so, I think that there’s compatibility as long as the–you know, consumers are smart, not dumb, and they’re to be respected and their wallets should be–to be respected and their taste is to be respected. So I think there is just the obligation to do it well, I think, in order to succeed.

But I think all those things will keep changing. You know, pricing will keep changing. Bundling with tech will keep changing. Bundling with other audio services will keep changing, and there’s going to be an evolution. It won’t look like it looks today. It’s a little difficult to see how it will look.

MS. ELLISON: Yeah. That’s what retains us all kind of busy and guessing, I suppose.

MS. ELLISON: AMC was also, you know, considered ripe for acquisition by a larger company, and in recent years, AMC has lost value. Do you see–do you see it being sold? Why hasn’t it sold? Is that something that you could see happening in the next year or two?

MR. SAPAN: You know, it’s certainly not–literally not my job, and so I–I’m only a cheerleader and supporter and shareholder, and I just would say that the share price declined. The “multiple compression,” as it’s called among the pros, has been pretty universal. It’s across the board in media. It’s actually been pervasive in tech as well. You know, Sarah, you may know better than me how much of it is alteration and interest rates and how much of it is sort of market–could be market saturation and what was considered–what were considered appropriate levels of leverage that may not, because of the escalation and interest rates now, be treated so fondly.

You know, for my own taste, AMC is a killer company. It’s spectacular. It’s got a spectacular culture. It has a spectacular 35-, 40-year history of invention and reinvention. And the Dolans, beginning with Chuck Dolan and Jim Dolan and now Kristin Dolan, really are–you know, really, they excel, and they’ve always excelled, and they’ve always guided it well. And so I would say “bright future,” in two words.

MS. ELLISON: You were always–you know, you were pretty early in exploring international expansion and international content, which has become one of the main growth areas for so many entertainment companies. Does that push mean that the U.S. market is sort of tapped out if you’re looking for growth, or what’s–that’s–I guess that’s the question. Is that–is it a–is it a move of necessity, or does it allow for something different from a content perspective?

MR. SAPAN: Yeah. So, I think–I think I understood your question. I’m not sure because–but I’ll answer it in two parts, if I might, and hopefully I cover what you meant.

MS. ELLISON: I can ask it once more, if I wasn’t clear, but–

MR. SAPAN: Well, I think I may–I think I’ll–I think I understood it. Two things. One is on the streaming side particularly, round numbers, a billion-plus, seven billion people on the planet, round numbers, a billion-plus who have high-speed connection, and the numbers are–I’m going to get them half right. I think Netflix with a quarter of a billion worldwide subscribers, but that number’s–that total broadband number across the globe is going to get well above a billion. I don’t know where it goes–two billion, three billion. So, on the streaming side, if that’s the current preferred means of consumption at the moment, either ad-supported or not,

I feel there’s extraordinary room for development.

On the content side, if you were talking about that, one of the most exciting things that I was exposed to was TV shows that traveled across borders, and I can name a slew of them, but I’m going to name a few because they’re just so relevant. You know, “The Night Manager” was something that was Brit that we did, and I thought it was wonderful. But then later on, we had a French show called “The Bureau” and a Swedish show called “The Restaurant” and, of course, exported the “Walking Dead” all across the planet. So, I think the globe, in a sense, becomes–I don’t mean more homogenous, but it becomes more of a market opportunity, both in terms of business opportunity and in terms of content generation both.

I hope I did reply in that babble.

MS. ELLISON: Yeah, absolutely. That’s well done. Well done. That was exactly sort of what I was–what I was getting at.

I want to go to our audience because we do have an audience question. You hear a lot about cord cutters and the death of linear television, and we have a question from Carlton Bush from New York who asks, “Where will primary cable networks be in 5 years?”

MR. SAPAN: You know, I guess there’s been–there has been cord–there’s been a reduction in the numbers, and it is interesting, however, that–and forgive me for trying to sound like an academic, which I’m not, but it does strike me that the history of media is that it adapts. And so, it takes advantage of technological changes and then with content changes. So, I guess I would–my attempt at an answer would be that live sports and news become a more significant part of what linear is because it’s urgent, I think is one thing.

I think a second thing is that I think people’s imagination may find formats that are not yet revealed that take advantage of live. I think we’re on one now, Washington Post Live, that is something that could find its way to a different route over time. You know, it’s pretty interesting.

And so, I think there will be invention. I think there will be invention against the tech–not against–in accord with the technology is what I meant to say, and I think that happened in TV, and it happened with the shows you referenced. The complex so-called “dramas” are a little easier to watch on demand than they are on linear because you can pay attention. You can stop and make sure that you’re not interrupted when you take a break to go get a cup of water.

So, I think that there will be evolution and evolution and evolution, and I personally think that some of the distinction between what we see now as social media, all of the services that are predominant and conventional or linear may find a way to join at least a bit. They may not be quite as segregated as TikTok and Instagram around the internet and this service is on cable. I think that some of that stuff–and those experiences will merge.

And by the way, if I may, to wit, this. You know what I mean? And so, what happens when you do that? If you get good minds to figure it out, you get experiences that have not yet occurred, and, you know, HBO has a big hit show that’s made from a video game. And I think one can see that go on and on and on and on.

MS. ELLISON: I wish we had more time. I wanted to ask you about–you know, you’re making independent films now. We’re going to have to put a pin in this conversation and have you back, because we have run out of time, sadly.

Josh Sapan, thank you so much for joining us, and thanks to all of you for joining us in the audience. Check out what interviews we have coming up. Please go to WashingtonPostLive.com and register for future programming.

My identify is Sarah Ellison. Thank you once more, and have a terrific day.