President Biden speaks to reporters concerning the particular counsel report on his dealing with of categorized paperwork within the Diplomatic Reception Room of the White House on Feb. 8.

Evan Vucci/AP

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Evan Vucci/AP

President Biden speaks to reporters concerning the particular counsel report on his dealing with of categorized paperwork within the Diplomatic Reception Room of the White House on Feb. 8.

Evan Vucci/AP

During greater than 5 hours of interviews over two days final October, President Biden cracked jokes, went into nice element concerning the design of his Wilmington residence and spoke with confidence about world occasions from greater than a decade in the past. At instances, he was defiant.

He additionally mentioned some mixture of “I don’t know,””I don’t recall,” “I don’t specifically remember,” “I have no goddamn idea” and related phrases greater than 100 instances in the course of the deposition for a particular counsel evaluate of his dealing with of categorized paperwork after he left workplace in 2017, in accordance with an NPR evaluate of the transcript.

The 258-page transcript of the interviews carried out by Special Counsel Robert Hur on Oct. 8 and 9 paints a extra nuanced portrait of the president than was described in Hur’s report final month. Hur is ready to testify earlier than Congress on Tuesday about that investigation.

The transcript reveals moments the place Biden felt round attempting to recollect the yr of sure occasions, like Donald Trump successful the election in 2016. and the loss of life of his son Beau. Biden recalled the day, May 30, however not the yr.

Hur concluded that criminal charges were not warranted as a result of the proof didn’t set up Biden’s guilt past an affordable doubt. He mentioned that Biden would come throughout to jurors as a “sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory,” had hassle remembering timelines and particulars, and mentioned it will have been “difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him … of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness” in his retention of a few of the categorized paperwork.

Biden and the White House pushed back angrily in opposition to the characterization. Voters have questioned whether or not Biden, 81, is just too outdated for a second time period in workplace. Since the Hur report landed, Biden has made a public push to indicate in any other case, together with in a vigorous State of the Union address final week.

Robert Hur is slated to testify on Tuesday about his probe of President Biden’s dealing with of categorized paperwork. In this file photograph, he arrives at U.S. District Court in Baltimore on Nov. 21, 2019.

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Robert Hur is slated to testify on Tuesday about his probe of President Biden’s dealing with of categorized paperwork. In this file photograph, he arrives at U.S. District Court in Baltimore on Nov. 21, 2019.

Steve Ruark/AP

During the interviews, the timelines bounced round

The first interview started on the White House at 12:15 PM on Oct. 8, the day after the lethal Hamas assaults in Israel. Hur thanked Biden for making time for it. “I just got off the phone with Bibi Netanyahu,” Biden mentioned.

Throughout the interview, Hur and his deputy Marc Krickbaum requested detailed questions on how paperwork have been dealt with when Biden was vp and as soon as he had left workplace – together with about particular rooms he was working in at numerous instances, and even particular items of furnishings. The timelines bounced round.

About half-way by way of the primary day, Hur requested Biden how he saved paperwork associated to his work after he not was vp. “Where did you keep papers that related to those things that you were actively working on?”

Biden mentioned he wasn’t positive. “This is what, 2017, 2018, that area?” he requested. “Yes, sir,” Hur responded.

The most complicated a part of the interview involved the timeline surrounding his son’s loss of life

They mentioned the character of his work after he left workplace, work that included Biden’s “cancer moonshot” push to search out cures and coverings for the illness – and writing a e-book.

But Biden went additional again in time, and commenced speaking concerning the loss of life of his son, Beau, from most cancers, simply as Biden was attempting to resolve whether or not to run for president. “Remember in this timeframe, my son is – either been deployed or is dying, and so it was – and by the way, there were still a lot of people at the time when I got out of the Senate that were encouraging me to run in this period, except the president,” mentioned Biden.

“He (former President Barack Obama) just thought she had a better chance.” Biden mentioned, referring to Hillary Clinton, who ended up being the Democratic nominee in 2016. He briefly talked about how, by 2017-18, he hadn’t dominated out attempting to run for president once more – then returned to speaking about his son.

“And so what was happening, though – what month did Beau die? Oh God, May 30,” Biden mentioned, in accordance with the transcript. An lawyer from the White House Counsel’s workplace interjected to say, “2015,” a yr then echoed by a second unidentified speaker.

“Was it 2015, he had died?” Biden mentioned. Moments later, the president – nonetheless seemingly on the lookout for his bearings in time – requested: “and what’s happened in the meantime is that Trump gets elected in November of 2017?”

Two individuals corrected him, saying, “2016.”

“2016. Alright, so – why do I have 2017 here?” Biden requested. “That’s when you left office, January of 2017,” one other of Biden’s legal professionals mentioned.

Biden then launched into recounting how Beau implored him to not shrink from public life, which led to his e-book title, “Promise Me, Dad.”

Biden went into nice element about his Wilmington residence

Early on, Hur thanked Biden for cooperating with the searches of his houses. “The FBI knows my house better than I do,” Biden quipped, to laughter.

Hur requested Biden to strive his hardest to recall particulars. “I acknowledge that some of the questions we are asking relate to events that happened years ago,” Hur mentioned. Biden replied: “I’m a young man, so it’s not a problem.”

At one other level within the interview, Biden went into nice element about his residence in Wilmington – a lot element that there have been quite a few redactions within the transcript by the U.S. Secret Service. Biden described himself as a “frustrated architect” as he went by way of trivialities concerning the residence he helped design and adorn.

“This room cost one-third of the entirety of my entire home,” Biden mentioned. “Swear to God.”

“It’s very impressive,” Hur replied.

Hur complimented Biden on his reminiscence. “That was very helpful. We have some photographs to show you, but you have – appear to have a photographic understanding and recall of the house,” Hur mentioned.

He was much less clear concerning the state of his storage

Biden had a much less photographic reminiscence when attempting to elucidate when and the way sure packing containers appeared in his very cluttered storage, images of which appeared in Hur’s report.

“I just came home and all of it was on the garage floor,” Biden mentioned.

He famous at one level that investigators who had searched his Wilmington residence had “left everything in place” – even some private gadgets.

“I just hope you didn’t find any risqué pictures of my wife in a bathing suit. Which you probably did. She’s beautiful,” Biden mentioned.

Asked at one other level whether or not Jill Biden ever saved her information along with his, the president was adamant in his reply. “She wanted nothing to do with my filing system,” he mentioned.

President Biden leaves the rostrum on Feb. 8 after talking concerning the particular counsel report on his dealing with of categorized paperwork.

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President Biden leaves the rostrum on Feb. 8 after talking concerning the particular counsel report on his dealing with of categorized paperwork.

Evan Vucci/AP

Biden was defiant about notebooks he saved from his time as vp

Krickbaum tried to ask Biden about whether or not he was approved to have notebooks he saved filled with handwritten notes about occasions and gadgets he was briefed on. “You view those as yours –” Krickbaum started to ask.

“They are mine,” Biden interrupted, in one of many extra defiant moments of the interview.

“Every president before me has done the same exact thing,” Biden mentioned. Earlier within the dialog, Biden had described how former President Ronald Reagan had held onto his private notes and diaries. It was a precedent Biden and his authorized workforce have leaned on to elucidate why he saved notebooks that would have contained summaries of categorized briefing supplies.

“I’m not arguing with you about that right now, Mr. President,” Krickbaum mentioned. “I just want to make sure we are on the same page,” Biden replied, earlier than they moved on.

Then-Vice President Biden tries out archery on a tour in Mongolia on Aug. 22, 2011.

Andy Wong/Associated Press

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Then-Vice President Biden tries out archery on a tour in Mongolia on Aug. 22, 2011.

Andy Wong/Associated Press

Biden advised a variety of his favourite tales in the course of the two days of interviews

The interviewers spent a variety of time strolling Biden by way of pictures of residence and workplace areas, asking him to recall particulars. In one occasion, Biden advised Hur he remembered shopping for a convention desk “in Wilmington at Berger Brothers, I believe.” Hur then requested about one other piece of furnishings.

“So, you just told us where you bought the conference table. Do you remember where the file cabinet came from?” Hur requested.

“I don’t know,” Biden replied. It was one of many many instances Biden advised Hur he did not know – about issues mundane (why he wasn’t utilizing the hanging folders in his file cupboard in Wilmington) to procedural (what his workers did with extremely categorized supplies when he was completed with them.)

The interview additionally included Biden happening at size concerning the decision-making course of across the troop surge in Afghanistan in 2009, his resolution within the early Nineteen Seventies to develop into a public defender, his resolution to run for workplace the primary time, his household assembly the place the grandkids satisfied him to run for president in 2019 – and this one time he used a bow and arrow to hit a goal throughout a visit to Mongolia.

At one level, Biden turned conscious that he was happening too lengthy with certainly one of his favourite tales, saying, “to make a long story not quite so long…” after which he saved on going.

“My generic point was: there was a lot of material that I had amassed that I wanted to save,” Biden defined.

At the top of the second day, Biden ended the interview with one final quip.

“I know it’s a lot of work for you – putting a lot together. I may now write a book, you have all this,” Biden mentioned, earlier than including: “That was a joke.”