Rainn Wilson leans into the concept of a religious journey for humanity.

Evan Agostini/Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

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Evan Agostini/Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

Rainn Wilson leans into the concept of a religious journey for humanity.

Evan Agostini/Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

A model of this interview initially aired on May 7, 2023.

In a collection like this there are a pair phrases which might be onerous to keep away from.

“Spiritual journey,” for one. It’s so overused and cliche. The different is “seeker” — which is one other considered one of these phrases that simply appears so self-indulgent and unnecessarily treasured. But the actual fact is the folks I’m speaking to on this undertaking are positively on some sort of religious path and they’re searching for solutions to existential questions, and by definition that makes them seekers.

The dialog I’m bringing you in the present day is with somebody who simply leans into all of it. He would not be irritated at being referred to as a seeker. Far from it. His newest e-book truly requires a religious revolution in America. Which he expects to lift some eyebrows. In his personal phrases: “Why the hell would the guy who played Dwight on The Office be writing a book about spirituality?”

I’m speaking about Rainn Wilson after all. And though he’s a really humorous man, he is not joking about this.

I talked to him earlier this yr proper after his e-book, Soul Boom, got here out. We preferred it a lot, we’re sharing it with you once more. We begin off speaking about his early religious influences, which included a sure TV present about every kind of moral quandaries — and intergalactic area journey.

This interview has been edited for size and readability.

Rainn Wilson: When I found Star Trek, it modified my life. Yes, it’s a bunch of parents on a spaceship boldly going the place no man has gone earlier than. But it is also in regards to the subsequent stage of the evolution of humanity on planet Earth. You see, the backstory to Star Trek that lots of people do not know is that there was a horrific World War III. And popping out of the ashes of that conflict, humanity has basically solved racism, solved sexism, has solved revenue inequality, and is then in a position, in its maturity, to exit into area and discover and unfold the phrase.

Rachel Martin: But the place did you see, I imply, did you actually see some sort of religious ingredient to it that helped you?

Wilson: Growing up in a Baháʼí household, we had been at all times speaking about peace and love and remodeling the world and repair to humanity. And we might have Buddhist monks in the home, and when born once more Christians would knock on the door on Sunday morning we might invite them in and we might prepare dinner them pancakes and discuss in regards to the resurrection or no matter matter du jour.

And so I’d at all times take a look at issues via a religious lens. So for me, once I take a look at Star Trek, I speak about this by way of a religious path. We all have a person path that we stroll every day. I’m attempting to be a greater individual and I’ve bought this stress at work and I’m feeling anxious and this individual is imply to me and I’m scuffling with this and that. And that is our private religious path.

When folks speak about spirituality, they’re usually centered on that side of a private religious journey and we’re not centered a lot on the broader one, which is humanity’s religious maturation into dwelling in international peace and concord.

I’m sufficiently old to recollect the ’70s, when folks would truly speak about world peace.

Martin: And imply it. Not, like, as an irony. Right?

Wilson: And imply it. And we believed that we may have peace, particularly with the tip of the Cold War. And these days, you carry up world peace and also you simply get that large, collective eye roll like, oh, you are essentially the most naive fool to stroll the face of the earth to even contemplate world peace. Human animals are self-serving and aggressive and backstabbing and can by no means have peace. We’ll solely have a sort of detente the place hopefully we’re not blowing one another up as we slowly, slowly destroy our planet all of the whereas.

Martin: And do you not assume that?

Wilson: I do not assume that. I believe that there’s one story of humanity which is tribal and which is about aggression and is about conquest. And that is one story. That’s one mythology of humanity, proper? There’s one other one the place people lived at peace with nature, the place people had been cooperative or sort to one another or labored collectively, shared data and enlightenment and moved ahead and into progress. So we will concentrate on that mythology of humanity.

Martin: Like lots of people who grew up in a religion custom they inherited from their mother and father, you fell away, like so many individuals do. But then in your early 20s, you had been going via a tough time. You had been working via lots of psychological well being points, and also you discovered it once more. Can you stroll me via what that course of was like? Did it really feel very comfy, like going again house? Or had been you hesitant about it, as a result of it is kind of not the cool factor to be, like, the spiritual man.

Wilson: It’s so not cool to be spiritual. And it is so humorous as a result of I’ve at all times recognized as being a dork and a misfit and an outsider. Maybe that is why I performed Dwight so successfully, apparently. And Hollywood comics and comedic actors are crammed with misfits and alienated outsiders. But then you definitely throw into the combo, I’m a non secular individual and my spiritual religion, which is the Baháʼí religion, is a vital a part of my life.

Oh, Rainn Wilson can be a member of this obscure Eastern faith and talks about God with Oprah and whatnot? Believe me, the stand-up comics and comedic actors of Hollywood do not know what to do. I alienated even the unalienable.

But, sure, you are completely proper. I rejected something and every little thing to do with faith and religion and spirituality once I was in my 20s as I used to be pursuing my profession as an actor in New York. I did not need something to do with morality or God or hypocrisy of faith. I seen faith as a weak spot, used as a crutch by weak folks, and spent a few years as an atheist. And, nicely, then issues simply began to interrupt down for me.

I suffered from actually crippling nervousness. I had common nervousness assaults that may render me mendacity on the ground in a pool of sweat — no joke. But it led me again on a religious quest the place I used to be like, , possibly I misplaced one thing by eliminating something and every little thing to do with spirituality. Maybe there’s some reply there. So go determine.

Wilson says he managed to “alienate even the unalienable.”

Evan Agostini/Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

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Evan Agostini/Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

Martin: You described speaking to buddies throughout this time about what they thought of the next energy, and you weren’t happy with their solutions. What had been they telling you?

Wilson: So I’d ask my buddies, “Hey, do you believe in God?” Which is a good dialog starter.

Martin: Good time at events — Rainn Wilson.

Wilson: (Laughter) I’d go to events and be like, “Hey, do you believe in God?” And folks would gulp and switch ashen and bolt within the different route.

Martin: Where’s the hummus?

Wilson: Check, please. But virtually to an individual — my artist buddies would say, “Well, I certainly don’t believe in an old man on a cloud, you know, with an agenda scowling down at us. But I definitely — I believe that there’s something more out there. There’s some kind of energy, some kind of eternal creative juice, something going on out there.” And that was fantastic, and I used to be with them on that. But that wasn’t sufficient for me. I used to be like, wait a second. So there both is a God or there’s not.

Martin: But do you actually not assume there is a gradation? Like, you are so positive that there’s God?

Wilson: Oh, yeah, positive shouldn’t be the phrase. I do know there is a God. It’s not a religion factor. God is as actual to me as my physique is. Let me put it this manner. Let’s again up and get just a little mystical for a second.

In the Baháʼí religion, there is a prayer we are saying daily the place we are saying, “I bear witness on my God that thou hast created me to know thee and to worship thee.” And we are saying this prayer daily. We have been created to know and worship God, in accordance with the Baháʼí mythology. And on the identical time, within the Baháʼí writings, the No. 1 method to describe God is unknowable.

So right here we’re. We have been created to know the unknowable. I really like that. That makes my head sizzle with pleasure. I get that. So I’m attempting to know the nice thriller — to know the unknowable. That’s a course of. It’s not a vacation spot. It’s not one thing you arrive at. It’s an ever-evolving strategy of understanding what it’s to be within the midst of life.

Martin: You consider there is a God. You consider God made the world and that there’s additionally intention in that, is what I discerned out of your writing, that it isn’t all random, proper? And I’m going to cite out of your e-book:

“Surely it [God] can’t have created all of us sad and beautiful human beings and cast us on this planet like a bunch of ants in an ant farm to simply have at it with a good luck pat on the back and a sign-off of, “Hey, get pleasure from all this random, ineffective magnificence.”

But why not?

Wilson: I wrote that? That’s really good.

Martin: You did.

Wilson: That’s good.

Martin: I know. I love that. But I guess I stand in awe of your assuredness as someone who, myself, is seeking some kind of intention in the randomness of life. But how do you know it’s not all just random?

Wilson: How do I know? I guess the best analogy I can give is that I know that I love my wife. I know that I love my son. I know that I love my father, who passed away a few years back. And forgive me for tearing up on the radio. It’s a terrible place to tear up.

Martin: It’s the perfect as a result of we will not see you.

Wilson: How do I do know that I really like my household? Like, if I went in to a scientist and mentioned, “Prove to me that I love,” and so they’d say, “Well, we’re going to do some brain scans and an MRI and a CT scan, and we’re going to look at what parts of your brain light up and …” — however that is not love. That’s not love. And I’ll by no means consider that love is solely a chemical, neurological response to be able to, , proceed the species propagating itself. My expertise of affection is much deeper and extra profound than that. So that is step one in understanding that there’s a inventive power within the universe, is understanding that there’s love. I additionally know that there’s magnificence. I additionally know that there’s artwork and there’s music. And all of this stuff which might be ineffable and transcendent and transport my spirits are footprints. They’re handholds on the trail to discovering the nice thriller.

Martin: You write that sacredness is a situation, and I cherished that line. If sacredness is a situation, how does that manifest for you in a day by day means?

Wilson: Boy, that is such a fantastic query. I need to go to the quote that I can not fairly keep in mind from Thich Nhat Hanh, that — it is basically, within the eyes of somebody who’s awake, all issues are sacred. And there was a profound lack of the sacred in up to date Western civilization. Nothing is sacred anymore. And I believe sacredness and holiness is a part of the dialog that we have to have collectively. You know, what’s sacred, and the way does it work? We can definitely expertise it in nature and, , for spiritual folks, we will expertise it in holy websites. But how can we nurture the sacred as a situation in our hearts that we will carry with us so {that a} dialog like we’re having may be sacred, in order that, , a spot the place you ponder life and the world may be sacred?

Martin: To see sacredness within the on a regular basis means purging your self of cynicism, does not it? Which is kind of the social forex of the second, it appears.

Wilson: Yeah. I used to be lucky as an actor to check with the nice performing instructor, André Gregory, the main focus of the film, My Dinner With André, and he would meet with the scholars. And I had tea with him as soon as, and he mentioned, “How are you doing, Rainn?” And I mentioned, “You know, André, I’m just feeling so cynical. I’m feeling pessimistic. The world is a pile of crap, and it’s getting worse.” And I’ll always remember this expertise. He grabbed my arm like a vise, and he seemed into my eyes and he mentioned, “Stop it. Don’t do it. Don’t be cynical. Everything wants you to be cynical. Everything out there in the world wants you to be pessimistic. If you’re cynical, they win. You have to keep hope alive.”

And that was transformative. And I walked out into the West Village, out of his condominium, and I actually noticed the world another way and realized that fostering hope and fostering pleasure in others is possibly our highest religious calling that we will do. We need to preserve hope alive that we will remodel ourselves, that we will remodel the planet. And that may be a key pillar to the religious revolution.